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Post by sigmfsk on Jul 17, 2012 16:20:12 GMT -5
It was the gas OR crap at fuel filter/carb/somewhere, it had fuel related issues later. But started nicely when I added 8 litres from the can. That's some good Monaco news. Do you think it everything will be fine with a new fuel filter? Did the fuel gauge read the fuel? your friend in a full tank of gas...and wearing sunglasses, arthur
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Jul 18, 2012 2:02:43 GMT -5
^The floating thing at the tank is stuck, because the needle rises always to the 1/4 line when turning the power on. Except when there was the gas constipation with race car kind-of idle, then the meter's needle was shakin'. Filter change is something I can do at the parking lot, I'm going to take the tank off & replace the fuel lines later. Or maybe the problem is the fuel line's small metal sieve at the carb's end, if there is one that is.
I also had fun trying to adjust the timing, the distributor is very stuck.
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Jul 21, 2012 15:04:36 GMT -5
Looks like I've got a regular fuel filter after the fuel pump and the "vapor separator" is missing, so my fuel issues could be pressure based? Also found again two loose vacuum hoses which belong to that small thing right beside the distributor. I think I should get rid of all emission crap and get that four barrel with a manual choke SOON. edit. checked again from the '74 bible, vapor separator is only in the 440ho engines, so I can get a normal fuel filter.
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Aug 10, 2012 3:43:31 GMT -5
I'm waiting for inspiration + money now. Especially money.
I got a new fuel filter, but forgot to buy fuel hose(old one wasn't good). I'll get that and some carb cleaner next week, maybe then I get it running better. And the next step is to get a smaller, temporary gas tank and try with it.
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Post by sigmfsk on Aug 15, 2012 12:58:48 GMT -5
Looks like I've got a regular fuel filter after the fuel pump and the "vapor separator" is missing, so my fuel issues could be pressure based? ... edit. checked again from the '74 bible, vapor separator is only in the 440ho engines, so I can get a normal fuel filter. At first, I thought you were talking about the vapor separator at the gas tank: and I was going to say that although some car models have a distinct external separator: that our Monacos all have them built-in to the tank: and then I realized you were talking about the fuel-filter setup: and that non-440's had this fuel filter: www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Mopar-2084467-5-16-Fuel-Filter-Kit-Charger-Super-Bee-Cuda-Road-Runner-GTX-/330655936498and 440's (I think regular, or high performance), had this fuel filter: www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Mopar-1973-74-B-Body-440-H-P-Fuel-Seperator-/320631224487I think I should get rid of all emission crap and get that four barrel with a manual choke SOON. Yes, it sure would make life easier. I don't know why the 440 had that separator. The parts catalog also shows that the 440 had a different fuel sender in the tank; I don't know why that would be either. It's probably all related to some emissions stuff. your friend in hot rodding it up, arthur
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Aug 15, 2012 16:01:23 GMT -5
I've been googlin' lately this fuel line stuff and I've understood that 440hp had different bigger fuel lines( 5/16"standard vs 3/8"hp). Don't know about the possible differences on the fuel pump, but it has to be related to fuel pressure somehow.
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Post by sigmfsk on Aug 15, 2012 17:00:40 GMT -5
I've been googlin' lately this fuel line stuff and I've understood that 440hp had different bigger fuel lines( 5/16"standard vs 3/8"hp). Ahhh, for the fuel pickup/sender the parts catalog lists. 3780425 for the Monaco: all motors but the 440. 3837355 for the Monaco: all 440 motors The catalog doesn't say anything about 440 hp vs. 440 regular. There's a seller on e-bay that has each for sale, but the descriptions are confusing: www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MOPAR-1974-8-C-BODY-FUEL-TANK-SENDING-UNIT-P-D-C-/3803180265483780425 : > fuel tank sending unit for ALL of the following models WITH NON > HIGH PERFORMANCE engines [this fits all with 5/16 ths inch outlet > tube www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-MOPAR-1974-5-C-BODY-FUEL-TANK-SENDING-UNIT-MOST-/380317822081?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item588cb56c81&vxp=mtr3837355 : > FUEL TANK SENDING UNIT for ALL the following models EXCEPT HP > 440 engines [those with a 3/8 ths inch outlet tube} The senders look different. The 440 model has an extra tube on top, which might mate to the extra tube on the fuel filter. Maybe on the Monaco all the lines were 5/16, and the 3/8 outlet tube is referring to other car models or earlier years. Good luck in your fuel mission!
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Post by spanks79 on Aug 15, 2012 17:41:19 GMT -5
I think I should get rid of all emission crap and get that four barrel with a manual choke SOON. No don't do that. Your carb with the proper automatic choke can be made to work properly once again. It is a common misconception to believe the emissions stuff is causing drivability issues, when in fact it is usually the failed attempts to remove said systems that cause the problems. Our cars do not have the separate vapor seperators. Im pretty sure the 3rd line on the 440 filter would run back to the extra line on the sending unit. Kind of a bypass feature similar to systems used on todays fuel injected systems. I am installing a 440 but plan to retain the 400 EVAP system.
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Post by sigmfsk on Aug 15, 2012 18:29:14 GMT -5
Our cars do not have the separate vapor seperators. Im pretty sure the 3rd line on the 440 filter would run back to the extra line on the sending unit. Kind of a bypass feature similar to systems used on todays fuel injected systems. Ahh, this is all starting to make sense. Does it sound correct that: All monacos have (2) lines connecting to the gas tank. One is for the fuel from the pickup to the fuel pump. The other is for a vent. Additionally, 440 Monacos have an extra line connecting to the gas tank. This is a return line from the fuel filter, > Kind of a bypass feature similar to systems used on todays fuel > injected systems. That fits with this: from www.bluesmobiles.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=owners&thread=45&post=4807and the vent-tube goes to the charcoal cannister: I wonder why the 440 would have the return line, but the 400 wouldn't. They both have the same fuel pump (according to the parts catalog). For emissions, I can understand wanting to keep them and make them work, but they can be troublesome. Even people that love Lean Burn hate it. I know one guy that's working on a replica and spending a lot of the effort to make it look like he's using the stock Lean Burn, but actually not. I suppose it depends on what one's goals are. And getting a running Monaco with the least hassle may result in keeping the stock emissions stuff.
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Aug 16, 2012 4:45:19 GMT -5
I wonder why they had to design the tank strap's J-bolts to the wrong side. They should be at the rear end. I'm only complaining because I have to take the tank off outdoors and I've done similar work with my van, no fun- bolts were rusty and they broke when twisting ring spanner.
I'm updating the carb and intake someday anyway so I'm not really interested taking time or effort to fix this old one. It's all part of my "secret" masterplan of low budget 451, 4-speed & some alternate bi-fuel system. And when I get the new carb+intake, I'll take the car to someone who knows how to adjust the carbs mixtures, nozzles, jets etc. + timing right. (of course I'll try some diy first, but without success)
+I like manual choke, works just fine in my '88 Civic which has also automatic transmission.
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Aug 16, 2012 7:21:13 GMT -5
This picture from the 74 book says that there are differences
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Post by spanks79 on Aug 16, 2012 8:58:55 GMT -5
I think what Arthur is saying is the pump is the same the filter with the 3 rd line on it is the vapor control thingy. Basically what they are doing is bypassing fuel thru the filter and fuel line to keep the fuel and fuel line assembly cool. As the fuel is passed thru the filter assembly it carries heat back to the tank where it can dissipate in the large tank. This works well and is done on a number of modern cars that use relatively low fuel pressure, higher fuel pressure systems are less likely to vapor lock. However with warm fuel returning to the tank we can create a vapor pressure inside the tank which can cause it own issues if the charcoal canister / vent system is not working properly. This is where people get into trouble they start removing the canister and plugging lines, now we have an improperly vented fuel tank.
I think for your purposes right now you need to make sure you have a good filter and a clean pickup in the tank and good fuel, if you think the tank vent is a problem just leave the gas cap loose and see if the performance changes.
Did you ever get the timing checked / set properly?
Again my plan is to use the 400 system on my 440 and only adjust it if necessary.
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Aug 16, 2012 10:30:43 GMT -5
I forgot to buy the extra magic stuff which could loose the distributor, got get it today with that new fuel hose and carb cleaner. I hope I'm smarter after checking the vacuum leaks. I tried that fuel cap thing earlier, but then there was definately vacuum leaks and bad fuel filter(which was installed wrong, "IN" was on the upper side). As for the fuel tank, Im not sure what to do. This car will have either cng equipment or e85 system if I'm going the cheaper way. If it's cng, I'll take the original tank off and find smaller replacement to the trunk (with return line of course). Maybe I should just buy that and do all new lines to the pump & vapor canister
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Post by Sd.Kfz. 400 on Aug 16, 2012 13:19:29 GMT -5
Still didn't get the distributor stuff, but now after carb cleaner & new fuel filter, it seems to work! No coughing after lots of throttle & and idle seems to stay steady. This was only a 15 minute test on the parking lot, I can't drive it on actual roads because the custom's driving permit ended. The customs also lost my car tax application so I had to send the papers again and ask more "tax free driving time". So maybe I can test better next week.
Noticed also that the muffler has a big rusted hole(wasn't there when I got the car so moving the car must've "opened" it), that's another reason why the idle sounded strange in the driver's seat.
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Post by sigmfsk on Aug 16, 2012 16:32:03 GMT -5
Regarding the fuel pump, I was wondering why the 440 had a third connection on the gas tank (while the 400 didn't), given that they were both using the same fuel pump. It would seem to me, that if they both had the same fuel pump, and the 440 HP burned more fuel than the 400, that the 400 would be in even greater need for a return line to the tank (for the fuel it couldn't burn). My statement about the fuel pump being the same was based on the parts catalog showing the same part number (for 400, 440 regular, and 440 HP): but SD points out that the chassis manual clearly shows a distinct fuel pump for the 440 HP: So it seems that this is one of these cases that the parts catalog and the chassis manual disagree, and darned if I know what a 400 / 440 / 440HP came with originally. But I learned what the third line is, and that it's a cool bypass line, and the reason that its on some cars and not others is the likely to do with a super fuel pump.
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