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Post by spanks79 on Feb 23, 2012 13:47:05 GMT -5
OOOO... that's some nice looking glass!
On one of you after pics showing the metal work that has been done, Did they replace a whole right rear frame rail? I see all the spot welds across the trunk floor.
I wonder if Mopar got the 5.1" from the low hanging shock mounts and lower control arms. It would seem strange to have an exhaust that low.
On your ground clearance, this may be obvious but one thing to keep in mind, that a 6" shock clearance and LCA height is "un sprung", meaning if the tire hits a obstacle the ground clearance will change proportional to the tire movement. A 6" ground clearance in the middle of the car (sprung) will likely hit every speed bump around.
That 4l80e mock up was a good investment, it is looking like pan modifications may work but not be worth the effort and complexity. It seems convenient that the trans tunnel mods could be made without distributing rubber floor too bad. Are there any reinforcement or "ribs" in that trans tunnel that would have to be reworked under your red X?
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Post by sigmfsk on Feb 27, 2012 21:40:24 GMT -5
On your ground clearance, this may be obvious... Well, partially obvious. I appreciate you bringing it up to help me think through all these issues. > A 6" ground clearance in the middle of the car (sprung) will > likely hit every speed bump around. Well, 6" doesn't seem THAT bad. It looks like a new Camaro has 6.5" of clearance: from March 2012 Car and Driver It's hard to know exactly what that means, though. Maybe there's 6.5" of clearance to the a-arms, but 8.5" of clearance in the middle of the car. The April 2012 Popular Hot Rodding has a relevant section on ground clearance: > A good rule of thumb is to have 4" of clearance, more if possible, > at the high center point. Clearance is less critical at the axles > than in the center or under the chin. It seems that Popular hot rodding is saying that center clearance and chin clearance are the two important spots, and that sounds reasonable to me. Let's say that center clearance (going over speed bumps) and chin clearance (driving onto inclined driveways) are equally important (need equal clearance). Stock monaco chin clearance: 7.5" Stock monaco trans pan clearance: 8.5" I can reduce the trans pan clearance to 7.5" and still be even with chin clearance. I'm already lower than that with the stock crank incline, since the 4L80E hangs 1.4" down lower than the stock trans. And that would be if the trans would fit in the stock tunnel at the stock location, which it won't. I'm trying to think how I can modify my stock cop rubber flooring to fit around an enlarged trans tunnel. If I have to enlarge the tunnel to make it fit anyway, and then I have to modify/create new cop rubber flooring to match it, I might as well make it large enough to get the trans up out of the way of the ground. I see Chris Alston offers: > frame rails available with 3-1/2", 4-1/2", 6", and 13" of ground > clearance www.cachassisworks.com/c-127-a-arm-clip-3x2-drag-race.aspxbut I don't think that really provides much info. > Are there any reinforcement or "ribs" in that trans > tunnel that would have to be reworked under your red X? No. Here's my setup: and there's no bracing in the trans-tunnel portion I cutout. There are some wiggly spots to give it some rigidity: but nothing like this Superbee bracing: from May 2012 Mopar Muscle > It seems convenient that the trans tunnel mods could be made > without distributing rubber floor too bad. I'm thinking that it probably will disturb it way bad (at least as much as I expect I'll end up wanting to raise the trans for ground clearance, and lower the motor for handling). Stay tuned! > On one of you after pics showing the metal work that has been > done, Did they replace a whole right rear frame rail? I see all the > spot welds across the trunk floor. No, the frame rails and subframe were all in great shape. But the sheet metal was rusted throughout. They replaced the rusted 74 trunk floor with the 76 parts-car trunk floor. This was the one area that they fixed it "incorrectly". The Marin County trunk floor had the spare tire rod mounted in the CHP position (right rear), but I wanted it in the standard civilian (left front) position. This is an incorrect restoration, but fits with me being able to impress the nephews with a giant trunk, and still is "screen accurate" since the trunk was never shown, and still "police accurate" since 1974 Chicago PD Monacos had the left front position. Your friend in talking through ground clearance issues now before I end up with something like this '71 Demon from May 2012 Mopar Muscle.
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Post by sigmfsk on Feb 29, 2012 18:52:41 GMT -5
It sure is a lot easier taking apart a transmission when I don't have to worry about putting it back together. Only two key parts to taking it apart (when one doesn't have to worry about putting it back together) 1) > The manual calls for a puller to remove the pump assembly but you > can put a prybar through this rectangular hole and gently pry under > the pump to remove it. from mattw2.dyndns.org:81/pics/Clone_Project/suspension_drivetrain/4l80E/RebuildHowTo/index.htmlHoles shown in green here on my transmission: and 2), remove the two screws shown in red. Without the transmission manual, I wouldn't have known to remove them, as I had planned to leave the valve body untouched. Now it's all empty, ready for mounting a 7/8" pipe through the centerline, so that I can mount in the car, and see where the harmonic balancer bolt would be. Very roughly: case: 45 pounds pump: 40 pounds torque converter: 65 pounds everything else (on floor, as shown in pic): 95 pounds 245 pounds, empty. Wowsers. Sure am glad I have the 50 pound mockup version to throw around. your friend in preparing for unconventional crank angle transmission mockup, arthur
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 2, 2012 1:20:16 GMT -5
Created my "virtual crank centerline" transmission mockup with a 7/8" pipe.
Mounted the back end in wood:
Got longer metric bolts to attach the rear housing to the case, with the wood locating block sandwiched in between. You can see the end of the pipe centered flush with the rear of the housing:
From the front:
From the installed Fury motor/transmission, I hung a plumb-bob from the output shaft and the harmonic balancer bolt, marking the locations on the garage floor. This way I can align the mockup laterally and longitudinally, and just adjust the crank centerline tilt.
Next step, pull the old motor and transmission.
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 5, 2012 17:41:05 GMT -5
Pulled the motor/trans combo. Here it is with a horizontal crank centerline. Here's looking inside the bellhousing. It was like bizarro world, where everything is backwards. The torque converter has the ring gear on it (as compared to the flex plate on a GM). The starter bolts to the bellhousing (as compared to the motor on a GM). Removed the transmission for a better look. Being that my 4L80E is > Designed for use with a 130 tooth flexplate, stock style starters are > used in the factory location. www.reidracing.biz/transmission-products/bellhousings-and-flexplates/big-block-mopar-bellhousingand so my 4L80E flexplate ring gear would be identical in size and teeth pitch to the stock torque converter ring gear, it seems that the shallowest bellhousing I could make would be the same as the stock bellhousing. So I made a piece to bolt to the front of my 4L80E mockup bellhousing that had a wood piece the same depth as the 727 bellhousing (crank centerline to bottom of bellhousing) Here's how it looks installed: You can also see I installed the shifter cable bracket. Here's the transmission installed at the stock crank centerline angle, and with the simulated harmonic balancer bolt (end of pipe) being in the same location (fore/aft, and up/down). The trans is off to the passenger side: which initially surprised me, but it's the same as what the stock bracket provides for: Reduced ground clearance, but not an obvious pan angle. The stock tunnel was nowhere close to fitting, especially with the shifter cable bracket installed: The cop rubber flooring didn't fit so well, even without the tunnel. The above rubber isn't from my Fury; I got it for a collector looking for a set. I don't think he'll mind me using it as a test piece. Notice that the recess for the A/C drain line is to the left of the hole, and there's a lot of uncovered space on the right. If I can't use the stock cop rubber flooring as-is, then there's really no disadvantage in tilting the trans for a lower motor (and completely making the stock flooring unworkable). Next step. See if raising the trans (to stock ground clearance), and lowering the motor would result in a trans tunnel that would be excessively big. your friend in steps, arthur
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 5, 2012 20:53:33 GMT -5
I see Rally Armor makes some skid plates for Subaru Impreza's. www.rallyarmor.com/store/skidplate_faq.phpHere's one on a 2006 Subaru Impreza WRX-TR www.cardomain.com/ride/3085906/2006-subaru-impreza#3085906_9That looks straightforward, and useful. I'm thinking I could make one plate that extended from the trans crossmember, up to the main crossmember (which will be moved forward of the crank pulley). Apparently the Subaru comes with a factory pseudo-skidplate undercover (left), which is replaced by the Rally Armor skidplate (right): I think raising my trans so that it hung no lower than the stock trans crossmember would be a good goal. your friend in the ability to drive over speedbumps, go up steep driveways, and drive over anvils, arthur
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 6, 2012 15:33:20 GMT -5
I like this skidplate idea: from www.titantalk.com/forums/titan-parts-accessories/84030-skid-plate-question.htmlSolid down the middle, but open on the sides, to let out the air that goes through the radiator. I just want something to protect all the pans, not to improve aerodynamics. Here are some cop skid-plates (such as for a Crown Vic): www.pro-gard.com/products/skid_plates.aspthey're made from 11 gauge steel. Remember that 2x4 that did a pretty good job of showing the low-hanging point of everything under the car: I thought that would be a good goal to have that as the same low point with the new setup. So I put it back the guide board, assessed that I could have a dry sump oil pan 2" deep, and put everything as low as possible. Here's how it looks: The rear of the trans is certainly higher than stock: But it looks like it will all fit under the seat (with seat modification) and still give the middle passenger some padding. I need 8" of trans tunnel clearance (measured from floor mounting point to highest point of tunnel under the seat). The seat provides 6" of tunnel clearance in the center, and it's 5" thick (11" total). Next: Figure out the trans angle. See if the trans can run at that angle. And learn at what level to fill it. Figure out the angle from the trans output shaft to the rear axle (once the axle is rotated to point at the trans output shaft), to see if it fits within the double cardan angle zone. Figure out a cop rubber flooring plan. It seems that I can make a tunnel that won't be too outrageous, but how to make rubber flooring to fit it?
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Post by Steam McQueen on Mar 6, 2012 18:23:28 GMT -5
We're getting spoiled around here with detailed build threads. Yours is taking on epic proportions, Arthur. They'll speak of it with hushed awe ... " That's the Marin County Blumo" I see Rally Armor makes some skid plates for Subaru Impreza's. Subaru backwards is - U R A BUS
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 6, 2012 18:24:19 GMT -5
Here's an interesting bellypan: > here's the required NHRA "oil containment device" that I had to add. It's > sucked up to the K--member so nothing's lower than it originally was, save > for the .063" material thickness of the pan. It's easy to remove and light > weight so no bother to deal with when working on the car. There's not > much oil in a dry-sump pan but I had to add it anyway... Rules are rules > and there was no way to get a diaper on this thing. Here are some requirements, but I notice the above pan doesn't meet the framerail to framerail rule. There might be different rules based on class. > OIL-RETENTION DEVICE > All cars must utilize an NHRA-accepted lower engine oil-retention > device; may use a belly pan in lieu of a device attached to the > engine. The belly pan must extend from framerail to framerail and > extend forward of the harmonic balancer and rearward to the rear > motor plate and must incorporate a minimum 2-inch-high lip on all > sides. A nonflammable, oil-absorbent liner mandatory inside of > retention device. www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/Unleashed/2011%20NHRA%20Rulebook%20Top%20Sportsman%20Section.pdfIt looks like different classes require it. Here's one rule: > Oil-Retention Devices All racers in cars running quicker than 9.99 > seconds in the ΒΌ-mile or faster than 135 mph, must have an > oil-retention device equipped. www.woodburndragstrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/NHRA-ET-Finals-Rules.pdfI'm not going to have a cage, so I don't think I have to worry about this oil retention device rule. If I ever hit 9.99, I'll smile all the way home after being banned from the track.
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Post by spanks79 on Mar 6, 2012 21:41:03 GMT -5
We're getting spoiled around here with detailed build threads. Yours is taking on epic proportions, Arthur. They'll speak of it with hushed awe ... " That's the Marin County Blumo" Steam, you are correct. Arthurs attention to detail, planning, research, and reporting makes my head spin.
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 7, 2012 6:09:25 GMT -5
Thanks, guys. I got kinda beat down for a while with all my subcontractors thinking I'm crazy, so it's invigorating to get recharged with the spirit of the blues.
With all these new build threads popping up, and people's helpful comments and questions on my own thread, I'm getting a blumoriffic synergistic recharge, and it feels good to get my build back on track.
your friend in racing at the texas mile, and then when they ask how I beat them, I can say "ur a bus", arthur
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 8, 2012 19:03:57 GMT -5
I'm polling (3) 4L80E performance transmission houses for their thoughts on running a 4L80E 5 degrees nose down. Answer #1: No problem. He said that run cars wheels up down the 8th mile, and they run rock crawlers nose down. A few degrees any direction was no problem. I asked about where to fill it (considering it would be running on an angle). He said that is filled based on volume (capacity), not on a certain level. I asked about the vent line on top of the transmission: He said it's to overflow the fluid if it gets too hot. I could run a vent line somewhere else, if I wanted. Off-roaders put a vent line up high to keep water from entering. Here's a 4L80E nose up: and nose down: from www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12250288&postcount=58Spanks has some good thoughts about static vs. dynamic angles: > Once that car hits the track it all goes out the window. Imagine the > running angles of a monster truck engine, or a drag car that runs > halfway down the track on the wheelie bars, or a NASCAR cup engine > that runs at 9k all day long with crazy g forces (carbureted, none the > less), or even my lawn tractor mowing the back yard, all far from an > ideal horizontal. bluesmobiles.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=owners&thread=45&post=3326But I can appreciate that although a transmission might work fine for short periods at a certain angle, that doesn't mean that it will run forever at that angle. It might need occasional "good" angles to get splash lubrication or such. I found this GM manual on the transmission: www.scribd.com/doc/34146059/4L80Ethat has a lot of good info: But I couldn't find anything about what angles it could run at. So for what it's worth, shop #1 says it will run OK at a nose-down attitude. Let's see what the other 2 say. I'm not sure if there's a better way to get a good feel for if it will work at that angle. I have plenty of people telling me that it won't work, but it would seem that people that put 4L80Es together for a living would know (or ought to know). your friend in shooting for 3 out of 3, arthur
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Post by spanks79 on Mar 8, 2012 22:47:18 GMT -5
He said that is filled based on volume (capacity), not on a certain level. I asked about the vent line on top of the transmission: But I can appreciate that although a transmission might work fine for short periods at a certain angle, that doesn't mean that it will run forever at that angle. It might need occasional "good" angles to get splash lubrication or such. I am glad to see there is at least one "professional" that is ok with it. I can't wait to hear whar others might say. I was actually at a buddy's trans shop today, next time I see him I will ask what he thinks. I agree that the transmission can only use so much transmission fluid at one time, so having a huge sump of fluid only ensures plenty of volume to the pump and to help dispapate heat. The other thing is, I am fairly certain ther is no "splash luberication" taking place inside this automatic transmission. The transmission relies on the fluid being pumped thru the case and gravity draining back into the pan. Now I know of some CVT's and specifically the Toyota hybrid transmissions rely heavily on "splash" or bath type luberication, but that is an entirely different beast.
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Post by sigmfsk on Mar 9, 2012 3:21:41 GMT -5
I am fairly certain ther is no "splash luberication" taking place inside this automatic transmission. The transmission relies on the fluid being pumped thru the case and gravity draining back into the pan. Best I can tell, you're right. I read through that GM 4L80E document on Scribd, at least enough to try and get the gist of the situation and pick out reasons why an angle wouldn't work, and didn't find anything. It talks about sucking the fluid out of the pan, and squirting it wherever it is needed. Here's one page on lubrication: I note that frequently it shows the transmission in a horizontal crank centerline (which results in the bottom of the pan not being horizontal), and there's no giant warning "for illustration only, you will burn out your transmission if you run it at this angle". But then again, I couldn't find anything saying that if you overfill the transmission, you'll have problems, so a lack of warning might not mean much. Here's one cross sectional pic: and the angle that I'm looking to use: So Spanks, I'll keep up with my inquiries, and I'd be appreciative and curious of any inputs that you get from your mechanics, thanks, arthur
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Post by spanks79 on Mar 13, 2012 22:19:35 GMT -5
Arthur,
I had a chance to talk with my transmission guy today. He actually built a 4l60e for me last week and is doing a clutch for me this week.
I presented him with the idea of a hypothetical 4l80e application that a friend was investigating about mounting a transmission at a 5 deg nose down orientation in a performance application and asked if this would cause any issues. Without hesitation, he shook his head no and said he sees no reason why that would be a problem, stating that he would just fill the trans to the "full hot" mark while cold. Basically just running it a bit over full just to be on the safe side.
He also confirmed that there is no splash luberication. All he fluid supplied to the trans goes thru the filter port, so as long as you keep enough fluid volume at the filter port the transmission will be fine. I even asked about my remote resivor idea and he said a "dry sump" would technically work however he could not think of why you would want to do something like that.
The only thing he and another builder were concerned about was the drive shaft angle.
So make that one more check mark in the go for it column.
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