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Post by forzav12 on May 26, 2013 10:47:11 GMT -5
I'm a bit lost here-what did Laguna do to the Monaco that would cause such a dramatic loss of value? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he just drop a somewhat correct engine into it and replace the speedo? It still remains an incredibly rare car and the perfect start to a Blumo. I'm guessing most of us would disassemble the car anyway in order to restore it, thus making whatever "work" Matt did to the car irrelavant? If I wasn't knee deep into another project, I'd consider it.
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Post by sigmfsk on May 26, 2013 11:47:16 GMT -5
I'm a bit lost here-what did Laguna do to the Monaco that would cause such a dramatic loss of value? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he just drop a somewhat correct engine into it and replace the speedo? As far as I can tell, the speedo in the CHP now is the same as original. Matt replaced the missing fuel gauge that was taken by a junkyard customer, presumably for use in their civilian Monaco. The loss of value to a "group A" person is that some of the original information on how things came from Ma Mopar / CHP is now lost. For example, one doesn't know if the power steering cooler in the car now is the same unit as CHP original, or if the line routing is original. One doesn't know if the seat belts are original, or installed in the original manner (with left over right or right over left when the center seat belts attach to the floor). It's just a hodge-podge now, and Matt didn't document the information. The guy reinstalling the seat belts was the same guy that cut them out of the Fury for ease of removing the seat. Are these the original wheels from the CHP, the same wheels as found in the junkyard, or new replacement wheels. Some of the letters on the fuel filler door as found in the junkyard are now gone. There's no information if the forward rear spring mounts are the cop-lowered kind, or if they are original to car or came with the replacement axle. Who knows what other information is lost. If someone doesn't care about those things, then there's no loss in value. It seems that with regard to paintings, furniture, antiques, guns, and bronze swords, there are more A than B people. But with cop cars, there are more B than A people. It still remains an incredibly rare car and the perfect start to a Blumo. I'm guessing most of us would disassemble the car anyway in order to restore it, thus making whatever "work" Matt did to the car irrelavant? If I wasn't knee deep into another project, I'd consider it. Yes, to a group B person, that car is great, even better than found in the junkyard, and he's improved the value of a car to a group B person. My contention is only that if the car was sold exactly as found in the junkyard, it would fetch far more to a group A person than a perfectly restored ex-CHP would fetch to a group B person. It looks like you can get a nicely done full restored ex-CHP for under $25K. www.bluesmobiles.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=cars&thread=577&page=1#3250A "group A" person isn't interested in that car. The information on that car can't be trusted. It doesn't have the correct alternator bracket. Even the build dates don't even line up on it. For a group A person, Matt's may have been the only 74 Monaco CHP with original paint job that could be a museum piece of exactly how things came. With careful documentation, it could have been a restified to a survivor of immense value.
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Post by forzav12 on May 26, 2013 14:09:53 GMT -5
While much of what you say is true, I'd argue that there would be no way to know for sure that this particular Monaco in "as found" junkyard condition, hadn't already been tampered with. Its provenance was hardly ironclad. Additionally, as there is quite the community of police car restorers, finding reference photos isn't that difficult. When I restored my CHP 69 Polara is was able to access original CHP photos and compare my car to a couple of very accurately restored examples. As a retired CHP officer, I've also spoken with other retirees and civilian employees that have photgraphs and recollections of the cars in question. There was even a 78 Monaco still in service when I reported for duty many years ago. Service bulletins are also available that clearly show how the CHP added and modified equipment. For example, my 69 utilizes a Cadillac overflow tank. The CHP motor transport and ASM documents not only give the Cadillac part number, but clearly show exactly how its mounted, the exact hardware used, etc. This isn't rocket science. And, I still maintain that Matt's Monaco is still a great find and could be restored to "A" status with a bit of research and dedication-you know, the stuff car enthusiasts/restorers have been doing for decades on vehicles rarer and older than our old police cruisers.
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Post by sigmfsk on May 26, 2013 16:17:57 GMT -5
Forzav, I think we basically have a different opinion of what someone would have paid for the car before it was fooled with. I think it would be easy to restore Matt's car to what people accept as being sufficiently accurate on CHP cars. But what most people accept as accurate in cop car restorations seems a far less accurate standard than what people would accept in other collectible hobbies. Greg Reynolds reports that > The hole was already in the post of the C-body police cars > whether they had a spotlight or not. www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/topic/5044-finally/?view=findpost&p=68312Ford Jockey reports that a 1974 interior spotlight bracket: > is not a factory install period its all backward www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/topic/7531-spotlight-questions-and-answers/page-6#entry116318If we didn't rely on the factual evidence contradicting these claims, we'd be trodding down the same incorrect path as everyone else. Its provenance was hardly ironclad. I don't know what you know about the car, but it was the best provenance I've seen for "group A" CHP valueness. It's like one buys a bowl for $3, and it turns out to be rare. If you auction it, pre-auction estimates may run $200K, and yet it actually sells for $2M. www.dailyfinance.com/2013/03/20/rare-chinese-bowl-auction-2-million-dollars/I'm saying there is a market, however small, for accurate CHP information. Additionally, as there is quite the community of police car restorers, finding reference photos isn't that difficult. That's awesome. Do you have any pics or info on an original 1974 Monaco CHP pushbar? I post about it here: www.bluesmobiles.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=police&action=display&thread=1351and if you can help add any info, that would be fantastic. thanks, arthur
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Post by forzav12 on May 26, 2013 18:23:40 GMT -5
I think those that restore automobiles to a high standard do so at a level every bit as accurate as other collectables. I also am quite familiar with other collectable items. I'd argue that many are better off not restored at all-I have an original Civil War sword-should I ever "restore" it, the value would drop dramatically. I'm also somewhat versed in collectable art-restoration is an undertaking best left to highly skilled craftsmen-even so, it is not a foolproof science as much of what the old masters knew went to the grave with them. Considering the value of such paintings to be many multiples of that of any automobile,you'd think what they do would be perfect-not always the case. We have much better luck with our relatively new items(old police cars for instance) as many of the archival data(and the folks that created it) is still available. Additionally, as someone who has followed(and restored a few himself)the Mopar musclecar scene, I'd hardly call it an exact science. There are many examples of factory variances that would all be considered correct. Its the same,and the some, when playing with cop cars. I know of ASMs from different areas doing things differently. So, a "barn find" discovered one place might very well be different than another-yet both would be correct. Many years ago, ASMs and others had a bit more freedom in what they did with their cars. Rumors of swapped carbs, big engines(even Hemis!) and special items are rampant within our hobby. So I wouldn't be too concerned about Matt's car being the absolute reference standard as it was found in the wrecking yard. Matt's other CHP car is essententially in "as found" condition and a very nice example of how it was done for that particular car. I'll see what I can find re: CHP pushbumpers for 74 Monacos. As an aside, I have personal experience of a CHP Diplomat pushbumper being altered in the field(don't ask why or how ). Lets say that it ended up in someone's hands directly from the department-without knowledge of the alteration some would claim it accurate. So, as I've stated before, Matt's Monaco is still a very good starting point for a correct CHP resto(not to mention a Blumo)and while some of its junkyard accuracy may have been lost, I don't think that affects its desireability much. The only car that would be better is a barn find 74 Monaco that had been sitting since its decommission-that was never the case with the car Matt has(at least in his possession that is).
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Post by 58hemifury on May 26, 2013 21:28:39 GMT -5
I think those that restore automobiles to a high standard do so at a level every bit as accurate as other collectables. I also am quite familiar with other collectable items. I'd argue that many are better off not restored at all-I have an original Civil War sword-should I ever "restore" it, the value would drop dramatically. I'm also somewhat versed in collectable art-restoration is an undertaking best left to highly skilled craftsmen-even so, it is not a foolproof science as much of what the old masters knew went to the grave with them. Considering the value of such paintings to be many multiples of that of any automobile,you'd think what they do would be perfect-not always the case. We have much better luck with our relatively new items(old police cars for instance) as many of the archival data(and the folks that created it) is still available. Additionally, as someone who has followed(and restored a few himself)the Mopar musclecar scene, I'd hardly call it an exact science. There are many examples of factory variances that would all be considered correct. Its the same,and the some, when playing with cop cars. I know of ASMs from different areas doing things differently. So, a "barn find" discovered one place might very well be different than another-yet both would be correct. Many years ago, ASMs and others had a bit more freedom in what they did with their cars. Rumors of swapped carbs, big engines(even Hemis!) and special items are rampant within our hobby. So I wouldn't be too concerned about Matt's car being the absolute reference standard as it was found in the wrecking yard. Matt's other CHP car is essententially in "as found" condition and a very nice example of how it was done for that particular car. I'll see what I can find re: CHP pushbumpers for 74 Monacos. As an aside, I have personal experience of a CHP Diplomat pushbumper being altered in the field(don't ask why or how ). Lets say that it ended up in someone's hands directly from the department-without knowledge of the alteration some would claim it accurate. So, as I've stated before, Matt's Monaco is still a very good starting point for a correct CHP resto(not to mention a Blumo)and while some of its junkyard accuracy may have been lost, I don't think that affects its desireability much. The only car that would be better is a barn find 74 Monaco that had been sitting since its decommission-that was never the case with the car Matt has(at least in his possession that is). I can agree with both sides of this debate. I myself would prefer getting a car in lesser state of repair before someone (especially a person who is repairing the car strictly for profit and has little care about the originality) messed with it, but in this case I'm sure the winning bidder was either going to do a soup to nuts restoration or a Bluesmobile clone and in either case would have been happy just getting a '74 CHP Monaco. The main reason I bought my '75 Gran Fury was the fact that it was an original paint car that was discovered in "just out of service" condition with paper work and all. I paid more for the car than I would have a comparable car that was repainted/restored. I do wish I had gotten the car before the previous owner had started the restoration because I would have disturbed as little of the originality as possible. Most likely I would have done what it took to get the car running and operating properly, cleaned the 33 years of dirt off of the windows and hit the road. Luckily everything that was done to the car was to a higher standard than I would have done so I have no complaints what so ever about the quality. I think Matt may have taken good offer off of Ebay knowing that anything he misrepresented on Ebay could come back to him. Off of Ebay it's a little easier for a seller to screw someone with little to no repercussion.
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Post by sigmfsk on May 27, 2013 2:32:23 GMT -5
Matt's Monaco is still a very good starting point for a correct CHP resto(not to mention a Blumo) I agree completely. while some of its junkyard accuracy may have been lost, I don't think that affects its desireability much. The guy that was interested for $30K is no longer interested. Hence my claim that the car was devalued for "group A" people. I'll see what I can find re: CHP pushbumpers for 74 Monacos. That'd be awesome. Anything you find will push ahead our knowledge of the setup, thanks.
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Post by sigmfsk on May 27, 2013 2:55:49 GMT -5
I think Matt may have taken good offer off of Ebay knowing that anything he misrepresented on Ebay could come back to him. Off of Ebay it's a little easier for a seller to screw someone with little to no repercussion. That could be part of it, but I think he really might have pulled it because his other car deal fell through. He just seems to operate in unusual ways. Whenever I try to think through his mindset, I fail. Why not send me my car parts 787 days ago? If not then, why not now, solely to get me off his back? Surely there's the possibility that me bellyaching about my parts would reduce the selling price of his car by the cost of shipping a box. Why send me all my parts but one at the beginning of the year, and then stall out on the last part? And then text me last week that he was sending it, but not? I think it's all part of the magic of Matt.
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Post by 58hemifury on Jun 10, 2013 5:26:00 GMT -5
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Post by mrroverrover on Jun 10, 2013 14:14:21 GMT -5
Ooh ooh ooh. So what's the story with this one then? (for me the newbie) Worth a shot if cheap enough?
Hopefully Sent from my phone
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Post by 58hemifury on Jun 10, 2013 16:38:01 GMT -5
Go back and read the threads about bad seller Laguna Matt and about this car.
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Post by Ghostbluesman (Ghostsoldier) on Jun 10, 2013 16:41:26 GMT -5
Too risky, bud...IMHO.
Rob
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Post by mrroverrover on Jun 10, 2013 16:59:42 GMT -5
Lmao very interesting reading Hopefully Sent from my phone
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Post by 58hemifury on Jun 10, 2013 17:00:23 GMT -5
Worth a shot if cheap enough? It is worth a shot if it doesn't go too high but is is a gamble, the car is not as represented. If it doesn't go super high I'd be surprised but if by chance it stays cheap then go for it. Just remember it is not a correct matching numbers car, it is not stated in the listing that it is but he played with the wording to sound like it is. It needs a floor board, there is wiring damage, the dash has been apart, the car was in a junk yard and picked, he put it back together using a rotted '74 Fury for the drive train and other parts.
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Post by Lord Vadus on Jun 10, 2013 18:10:36 GMT -5
I'm particularly concerned by the statement that it's not running, but, instead, "turns over freely" because everything in the ad is as intentionally misleading as possible.
The picture of the radiator shows its loose and I'd be willing to bet, were I a gambling man, that the picture of the engine is from back when it was in the Fury. If he could get it running to increase the price of the car, he would have; at least, that's my thinking.
There is also a LOT that's suspicious about the pictures of this car; you can't see the door panels on the passenger side, all the interior pictures are taken at a low angle, even his pictures of the tires show 4 different brands.
This is one car that the buyer will be disappointed with after the purchase because it will sell for an undeservedly high price. There are still quite a few original police goodies on this car, but it's going to need a lot of work and, in the end, only the VIN and fact that it was a CHP car will set it apart from a cop car clone built by a fan, and I'm not ready to rule out the fan-built one yet, as this is the type of car that will attract a quick-flip re-seller and if that's the case, then it will surely lack the love and attention to detail that can be found throughout the "Bluesmobile Owners" section of this forum.
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