I seem to remember the seller from Oregon had two Marin Co's. Is that correct, or am I mistaken?
And if so, is this in fact the other car?
Hi TK: I wroteup the details on BBC, thinking it would be around a while. I don't remember the specifics, but the gist is that Jamie had 2 Monacos. He sold one several years ago; it was a civilian car in pretty nice shape. It ended up going to the Netherlands.
And... the more I look at the photo I had asked about, the more it looks like it is probably a stock green Fury, with the doors and roof painted white. (The trim pieces are removed and it has vent windows)
And then we could use this gauge to measure caster/camber/toe. It's fine for measuring total toe, although I'll use a bumpsteer plate to more accurately measure actual toe change as the wheel goes up and down.
On BBC, I posted the following three pictures of the passenger knuckle. I wish BBC was archived so I could see exactly how I described the pics. I add my best guesses here:
Above is how the passenger knuckle looks with the wheel straight ahead.
Above is how the passenger knuckle looks at full right lock (the stops hitting each other) with the stock wheel and tire.
Above is how the passenger knuckle looks at almost full right lock with the new wheel and tire. The stops are not hitting each other, because the rear of the passenger tire is hitting the frame rail.
So one concern I had was the tire hitting the subframe. I want full lock-to-lock minimum turning radius. It's true that I'll be drifting through most of the 2012 Steam CEVS challenge, but I still want ease of turns in supermarket parking lots.
Above, front of front right tire at full left lock at standard ride height.
Above, rear of tire of same situation.
Above, rear of front right tire at full right lock at standard ride height.
Now this wheel has a 1/4" spacer between the hub and the wheel. I wanted an extra 1/4" between the upper a-arm and the wheel. I'm using the spacer to simulate how the new wheels will look.
But it sure seems that this 1/4" spacing can't explain why the rear of the tire is so far away from the subframe. Probably part of it is the loading of the tire. When I measured on Marin County, the tire was supporting the weight of the car, and the tire bulged out. Now the tire is just hanging around.
Above: also interesting was that at full right lock, the driver side knuckle stops hit.
At full left lock, the stops almost hit, but didn't "clank". It just seemed like the geometry was at its limit and there wasn't any more range of motion.
I still have another visit or two before I'll be able to get all the suspension points measured in 3 dimensions, but made some good progress today.
I took a look at the three BBC-posted pictures of me testing the wheel fitment, and I have better guesses of what they show, which solve the problem of why earlier I could get to full right lock, and now couldn't. I add comments in brackets to my original guesses:
pic 1: Above is how the passenger knuckle looks with the wheel straight ahead [at full droop, with no wheel]
pic 2: Above is how the passenger knuckle looks at full right lock (the stops hitting each other) with the stock wheel and tire [at full droop, with no wheel]
pic 3: Above is how the passenger knuckle looks at almost full right lock with the new wheel and tire [at standard ride height]. The stops are not hitting each other, because [the suspension geometry doesn't actually allow the stops to hit at full right lock at standard ride height, but also] the rear of the passenger tire is hitting the frame rail.
Everything in the front brake area needs to be replaced, so I started looking at upgrade options. There's nothing obviously available for a 1974 Monaco, and it's not obvious that there would be any upgrades that would fit inside a 15" Mopar OEM bluesmobile style rim.
But there does seem to be a good option - it's just not obvious!
Checkout June 2005 here www.moparaction.com/tech/archive/Bold-Beeper.html > With a cool set of CNC billet adapters from AR Engineering, we retrofitted Viper / Brembo > 4-piston aluminum calipers onto our stock Mopar 12" cop-car rotors. Amazingly, it this > setup even cleared out 15" OEM Mopar wheels!
> The AR Engineering kit contains the brackets and pad spacers necessary to hang the > Viper calipers onto ’73 to ’76 A body drum brake knuckles.
Ok, so the bracket in this kit is no good for me. What is this about "pad spacers"?
> The AR Engineering Viper conversion kit uses the late B body rotor. These rotors are > 11.75 inches in diameter and 1.00 inches thick... > Since the Viper caliper is designed for a 1.250 thick rotor, pad spacers need to be > installed behind the pads when used on the 1.00 thick B body rotor. These pad spacers > simply slide in behind each brake pad and are retained by the pad retention pins.
And a 1974 Monaco has a 1.25" thick rotor, exactly the same as the stock Viper. Reference pic 1
For once, it's actually easier to hotrod a c-body!
Back to the AR Engineering kit page (I won't need this kit, but the page has tons of good info): > We recommend hanging the Viper calipers to the rear of the knuckle since that is the > way they are originally designed to work.
Oh, the beauty of it, the 1974 Monaco hangs the calipers to the rear of the knuckle. See pic 2
> The Viper caliper is larger than the factory caliper and may cause interference with your > existing wheels. Many original 15 inch wheels will fit this kit but some will not. In > general, wheels from late model cars that came with disc brakes will fit while wheels > from earlier drum brake cars will not. From what we have seen, the 15 inch "cop car" > wheels will fit as will the 15x7 JJ wheels from late model disc brake cars. That is all sounding good for fit! The Viper calipers are fixed (non-sliding) so if they fit statically, they will fit during operation.
> A good source for slightly used Viper calipers and pads is Archer Racing. > Archer Racing Accessories Duluth, MN (218) 727-4806 www.archerracing.com/
I didn't get a good feeling after seeing the "NEW" in the title where later they are listed as refurbished.
I checked the Dodge Dealer and they are about $650 EACH. I called Archer Racing, and they were all out of used sets, and I ended up getting a great deal on a pair of NEW calipers, pins, pads, spacers, and shipping, all for slightly less than one new caliper from the dealer.
Sweet stopping power: see pic 3.
I just need to fabricate a stout bracket that bolts to knuckle and the caliper. I'm thinking something along the lines of pic 4,5,6.
car top speed / speed @ 1 mile / ratio of 1 mile speed / top speed
LAMBORGHINI MURCIÉLAGO 205 mph / 172 mph
MERCEDES-BENZ SLR MCLAREN 207 mph / 181 mph
RUF RT 12 219 mph / 185 mph
BUGATTI VEYRON 16.4 253 mph / 204 mph
For each car, I calculated the ratio of each car for: the HP to get to 1-mile speed / the HP to get to max speed. The ratios ranged from 0.53 to 0.67. The arithmetic average of the ratios was 0.60.
So, roughly, whatever my top speed is, multiply by 0.60 to get my 1-mile speed.
Now we're kind of mixing apples and oranges here, because a top speed of 210 mph takes a lot more power than a top speed of 186 mph. Which is somewhat offset by the fact that the drag on a Monaco is so much more than one of these sports cars.
So it was time to come up with more reasonable goals. This thing is a bluemobile! Just watching it break 100 down the track will be an incredible sight to behold. Nobody is really going to care if it hits 150 vs. 170.
I think a good goal is to peg the cert speedo. This way I can simply tell people I have no idea how fast we were going. The max cert speed reading appears to be about 155mph (pic 2).
top speed 155mph HP = 477 RWHP. Dividing by 0.6 to get HP required to hit 155mph @ 1 mile = 795 RWHP. Dividing by 0.88 to get crank HP = 903HP.
This will fit within the HP range of my transmission and torque converter:
Early model (<= 1997) late model - center lube (1998+)
Jakes Performance has a good description of the differences: > ...in 1997 they went to the "center lube" style. This routed the cooler return to > the center support area of the transmission instead of the front. The theory was > that returning the lube oil from the cooler back to the center of the transmission > instead of to the front would allow better lube flow and longer planetary life. In > our experience there was no significant improvement with this redesign. Both > styles have been in service long enough that we are seeing both come in with > high mileage. We actually see more planetary failures in the late model 4L80Es > and almost all are lube related. Keeping in mind that these transmissions were > installed in heavy vehicles for towing and heavy duty use, failures of this type > aren't surprising, and with a proper rebuild either style works fine, our point is that > there isn't any inherent flaw in the early design that precludes it use. It's essentially > the same rear geartrain as a TH400 that has proven itself for almost a half a > century. > Another "improvement" made by GM was the overdrive section was revised for a > smaller overdrive sprag (roller clutch). > We actually prefer the early style overdrive sprag for high performance use.
I picked the early model because: 1) the core is cheaper 2) for a car application (i.e., not towing 30,000 pounds) there's no obvious strength disadvantage, and possibly some strength advantages 3) it has the advantage of having the cooler lines on the front of the case, so the transmission tunnel doesn't need to be as wide
Pic 1 is a 74 challenger 500" wedge motor with a 4L80E
I originally wrote this above as part of my personal Marin County thread on BBC. I copy here to the performance area, as it has technical info on bellhousings and such for putting a 4L80E behind a mopar motor. It seems good to split it up, and hopefully the info will be of help to others.
Some pics from April 2011 from my BBC Marin County thread. I wanted to reference one of these pictures in the heim-joint thread, so thought it good to copy them over here.
pic 1 : getting ready for the bead blasters
pic 2 : 74 subframe. I was thinking of using the 1976 parts car subframe, but the 74 subframe doesn't look bad at all. It would be "cool" to use the original 1974 subframe, and it's already drilled for the support for the pushbar. It would be "cool" to use the same pushbar-to-frame mounting as originally used on the car, and then have the bluesmobile-style pushbar at the front. It would look the same as JKNLWOODD's plans, but instead of the extensions bolting directly to the subframe, they would be welded to the bracket that was originally used.
shows the honker bracket that was bolted to the subframe.
pic 4 is a shot of the underside of the subframe today sans bracket.
pic 5 is the removal pile.
I thought I stripped down the car pretty good before sending it to them, but I guess I was wrong! The pushbar bracket is seen hanging off the right corner of the cart.
pic 6. Minimum tire rating
I once thought that this was wrong, but it turns out that 1974 440 w/out A/C needs G tires. And a 1974 440 w/ A/C needs H tires.
pic 7. Notice the yellow writing on the b-pillar above the G78 sticker. I provide a closeup here.
It looks like 74 D4-05 Marin
I thought the "Marin" might be "Monaco", but notice the dot for the "i".
The CHP painted the rear panel of the driver door with a white car number.
pic 8. The a-pillar sticker showing that the speedometer had been replaced.
Mine was replaced, and got a 74 cert. King of the hill's was replaced and got a 75 cert. Remember that speedo that I got on e-bay (for 77 canadian police, and 77 finnish). The box came with that same replacement sticker (or at least one that looked similar - I didn't actually compare).
pic 9. Underside looking from rear to front
pic 10. A tad bit of rust.
That's going to hurt. I keep telling myself "it will all be worth it when you can your nephews are riding in the back seat, and you can tell them that it's a real police car and someone probably urinated right where they are sitting."
AZ Blues later wrote:
I was looking at [one of those pics above] of your subframe, and got pretty happy, because the engine frame mounts look an awful lot like mine, where a 318 was once parked.
Looks like my 440 is going to drop right in without special conversion mounts after all, just as I had read here that it will. Swanky!
And then I posted some stuff about how I thought that at some level, big block subframes and small block subframes were different, but not in any obvious way that makes them non-interchangeable for engine-swap puposes. I'll work on creating a "differences" thread on that.
this is a collection of pics and info from BBC Marin County and other threads, along with some new pics
Here's my 440 with intake removed:
and clearance to hood:
I'm looking for fuel injection, and the only way to get a lot of unobstructed air to the intake (without changing the hood) seemed to be to use an intake something like one of the following:
and then have the intake going straight forward over the radiator, like these:
and then end at an air cleaner like one of these:
On the left: Spectre 889605: 6" I.D. Inlet, 7.18" Base Tapers To 4.13" O.D., 10.55" Overall Height
on the right: S&B R0944: 6" I.D. Inlet, 7.50" Base Tapers to 5.25" O.D., 13.75" Overall Height
then neck it down to 4" like this:
in the location in blue:
Originally I was thinking of going around the radiator, but over the top seems best. I decided to use the S&B filter. It's larger, and has filtration on the end.
I placed an order in with John Marcella. But after the 4-month lead-time wait was over, he didn't return my calls or e-mails. Bummer. So I started looking at other options.
Indy makes this tunnel ram intake:
So I decided to use it as a foundation for conversion into a forward mounted throttle-body EFI intake.
Here it is under the hood, using the clearance values I measured on the car:
I'm planning using a 40550 March Pulley set with A/C, power steering, alternator, water pump, and crank serpentine pulleys. But I'm not planning on using the Chrysler alternator with the March serpentine pulley. Instead I'm planning on using a GM AD230 alternator which already has a serpentine pulley installed that accepts the same serpentine belt.
Here the stock alternator:
and front view:
for A/C I see that the compressor would interfere with the throttle body (if the throttle body was mounted on the centerline of the intake).
The Sanden compresser can be clocked in the March pulley set in 3 of the 4 possible positions (with the fittings pointing in any direction but down):
Pointing to the passenger side would interfere with the throttle body. And straight up hits the hood. I'll point to the driver side and them have the entire length of the engine compartment to move them over to the passenger side firewall.
I did a mockup with the motor guys:
The IAC connector and throttle linkage must clear the distributor.
The TPS must clear the A/C compressor. The air pipe to the throttle body must clear the A/C belt.
No way will the throttle body clear a thermostat housing.
The blue instapak shows the clearance to the hood. I think we'll be able to fit it under, although I may need to scallop the brace just forward of the intake (and add other braces around it).
The only serious problem was the water pump radiator hose exit. There's just no clearance for a thermostat housing / radiator hose exit between the water pump housing and the throttle body.
But clearly that doesn't help me. It has the thermostat in the same place, and I lose the pulley needed for the serpentine belts.
I'm thinking the easiest thing to do is simply modify the water pump housing to cut off the thermostat housing mount, and weld on an aluminum neck that would exit the radiator hose to the driver side, as indicated in the pic above.
I'll be getting a custom radiator for: - crossflow - lower height of cores to allow air intake to travel over the top - to include power steering cooler - to include engine oil cooler - to include transmission oil cooler
so adding - dual pass (so upper and lower radiator hoses are on driver side) will easily fit in the customization plan.
I think I'll need two end tanks that are each much higher than the cores - passenger side so that the radiator cap on it will be the highest point in the cooling system (instead of the water pump). - driver side so that it can include an added-on remote thermostat housing. Water exits the water pump housing, goes through the welded aluminum neck, to flexible rubber hose, to radiator remote thermostat area. When thermostat is closed, coolant doesn't flow into radiator. When opened, coolant flows. I'm just moving the thermostat from directly above the water pump to directly before the radiator.
Doing some scanning! Here's some stuff that I found interesting that doesn't fit anywhere else.
Here's a pic from Nov 2011 "Hot Rod" on an EFI forward mount intake:
Aug 2011 "Hot Rod" has this intake pic:
Aug 2011 "Mopar Action" has this intake pic:
I guess I don't know for sure that I'll be able to get the intake tube over the radiator, but it sure would be easier than going around.
Aug 2011 "Mopar Action" also gives a shout out to this guys: www.mopargauges.com/ great repair guide for gauges for a 66-67 Dodge Charger. Doesn't seem particularly helpful for a 74 Monaco, but looks pretty good for a charger!
Nov 2011 "Car Craft" has this article on radiator fans.
> If fan depth isn't critical, the consensus among confirmed > junkyard builders is the Lincoln Mark VIII 18" fan or Ford's slightly > smaller 17" Taurus LS/'95 Thunderbird /'95 Cougar 17" fan are > the best. The hero is obviously the 18" big dog Lincoln fan...if > you have trouble finding a used one for $30, consider a > brand-new one from Rock Auto at only $72 plus shipping... > Both the Lincoln and t-bird/cougar fans come with an integrated > fan shroud...
and then it goes into using a two-stage switch, or a PWM controller. I'll need to see how these might fit with my custom radiator. If its close, I might design the radiator around the fan.
Sep 2011 "Hot Rod" had an add for this billet aluminum crossmember
August 2011 "Street Rodder" had a blurb about this device: arrowtrackfromeclipse.com/features/ that notifies you by cell-phone if your car has been moved (or exceeds a certain speed, or travels outside a certain boundary, however you have it setup).