store bought headers
Oct 23, 2011 11:30:39 GMT -5
Post by sigmfsk on Oct 23, 2011 11:30:39 GMT -5
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This is a summary block of our current 74-77 c-body header knowledge.
Big Block:
Hedman 78070.
Shortie headers.
Lots of pics and links in this thread indicating they'll work.
Sanderson DD2 Chrysler 383-440 V8 Blockhugger Header Set
Sanderson advertises:
> The DD2 is a perfect fit for Chrysler "B" and "C" chassis.
58HF reports that
> the lower flange hit the side of the block, a little grinding and he made it work
Hooker 5113
Long tube headers.
Advertised by hooker to fit.
Expect to work, but need to remove drag link and torsion bar to install.
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/post/11919
Hedman 78030.
Long tube headers.
Several sites advertise them for a 74 dodge:
www.sportcompactonly.com/Hedman/Performance/part_c-1_b-48_p-99339.htm
www.jegs.com/i/Hedman/500/78030/10002/-1
But the hedman site doesn't:
www.hedman.com/site/?d=119&dt=108&Keyword=78030&YearID=&MakeID=&ModelID=
No data.
TTI headers:
They have some for pre-74 c-bodies that may work on a 74.
No data.
Schumacher has some Hi-Flow Tri-Y Under Chassis B/RB Headers:
> In '66-73 C-Body applications: The 440 may require shims on the
> passenger side motor mount. In some cases, the automatic kick down
> bellcrank may hit the flange and need to be narrowed.
www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsType/BRB_Headers.html
May work on a 74?
No data.
Small Block:
Hedman part # 78050.
Doesn't fit 77 royal:
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/post/2265
headers for 1998 - 2003 dodge durangos
Fit a 69:
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/post/2265
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What follows is the original post that started the thread:
On BBC, we chatted a bit about headers here:
www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/topic/2053-c-body-headers/
We started talking about Hooker Super Comp 5113 headers, as they appeared the only headers that would work in a big block in a 74-77 c-body. I found this link:
www.moparchat.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163665&postcount=19
where a guy used them on his 77 c-body Fury:
> These fit into my C-body 77 Plymouth GranFury 400 c.i. automatic.
> Everything fit with the minor exception of the transmission
> selector torque shaft, between the transmission and the frame,
> had to be rotated up, 180 degrees, to clear the header collector.
> The rest was a trouble free fit.
KewanneTypeR wrote that those were the only headers of which he was aware would fit our monacos. He spoke with TTI about their c-body headers, and:
> ...TTI offers C-body headers, but they are listed for applications
> only to 1973. I talked to TTI in person at a car show since my first
> post and asked if their headers would fit on 74-77 cars. Nobody
> at TTI knew that information. That is because they never test
> fitted them on 74-77 cars. They used a pre-74 C-body to design
> the headers, so that is all they are approved for. TTI's 1973 and
> down C-body headers "MAY" work on 74-77 cars, but nobody will
> know until someone gives it a shot.
------------
And then I wrote about what I thought would be the best flowing stock manfolds for use on a 74-77 c-body.
------------
Country Bunker posted this link
www.cbodydrydock.com/forum_viewtopic.php?6.60334
about
> ...one set of headers a guy is useing on a 1969 dodge monaco
> 500. Their headers for 1998 - 2003 dodge durangos. Their not full
> lengh headers, just shortys.. and their not gonna bring out as
> much power as the hookers. But should work great for a mild
> engine. Hell they've gotta be 100% better then the hallow boat
> anchors for manifolds that came from the factory!
and provided these pics:
Then I posted:
----------------
Here's a pic
from this site:
www.stainlessheaders.com/customheaders
They send you a kit, and you make your own set of headers out of aluminum and PVC pipe, then drill holes through the pieces and make them permanent. Then you send it back to them, and they make the headers.
Here's a video about it:
I bet its expensive, but it would be a fun experience to design some headers.
I see in the back of HPBooks Big-Block Mopar Performance by Chuck Senatore has these formulas for header length & diameter:
length = 850 * (360 - exhaust valve opening point ) / RPM - 3
diameter = sqrt(cid per cylinder * 16.38 / (length + 3) * 25) * 2.1
example: 572 engine, 8 cylinder engine, exhaust valve opens 85 before BDC, desired rpm is 7000
length = 850 * (360 - 85) / 7000 - 3 = 30.4"
diameter = sqrt(572 / 8 * 16.38 / ((30.4 + 3) * 25)) * 2.1
= sqrt(71.5 * 16.38 / 835) * 2.1
= 2.49"
I've taken some liberties with the equation, because the book has many editorial errors and I tried to clean it up best I could.
Here's a site with a calculator:
www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
and for the same engine, it calculates headers 30.4" long (the same length), and a diameter of 2.37". It also gives collector length of 15.2" and diameter of 4.5"
If you have a dyno, you can do some runs and input the data into pipemax which will design a header:
www.maxracesoftware.com/
I see that Schumacher Creative Services offers headers for '65 and up c-body:
www.engine-swaps.com/frames/frame_Header.html
I wonder if they really mean '65 - '73.
--------------------
Bluzman write:
> I bought a set of the Hedman part # 78050s from Summit just to
> see if they would fit. My car is a 77 Royal with a small block....well
> the headers actually fit perfect..but you can only drive the car
> straight! The pitman arm hits the #1,3,5, header tube on the
> drivers side. Oh well...I was just curious...I had found a website
> that said they would fit a 77 Royal Monaco but rest assured they
> will fit...as long as you do not have to turn.....great for a Drag
> Car!:BB: I was wondering about the Durango ones..looks like
> they would fit fine.
Beefmalone:
> how tight is the fit? a little heat and a BFH can fit alot of
> problems.
Bluzman:
> You could cut and re-negotiate the 3 problematic tubes and make
> them work...............which I actually did..but then the starter
> would not clear them....wasted a whole weekend cutting,
> shortening, and lengthening the tubes. There was not even room
> for a mini starter. So the factory manifolds went back on. Sorry
> Beef...even the BFH will not work here.
-------------------------------------
So up to modern day, Lord Vadus has a set of Hooker headers.
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=owners&thread=56&post=2089
and they seem to be competition, not super comp, and are marked "50113" instead of "5113".
I'm eager to see how they fit, because (as I wrote in LV's thread):
If they fit, and if we can figure out what a 50113 was advertised for use by Hooker, then we might drastically expand our header selection range. Let's say, for example that a 50113 was sold for:
a 440 in one of:
1967-1976 "A"-bodies:
1962-1974 "B"-bodies
1970-1974 "E"-bodies
Then that might mean that a header designed for a 440 for one of those cars will fit a 74-77 c-body. So that might mean that I could use a header designed for one of those cars:
www.ttiexhaust.com/Header-TTI440-218/HeaderDetails.htm
on my car. At least it would give me a greater degree of confidence that if it needed to change, it wouldn't need to be modified by much. I excitedly await future updates.
--------------------
In the Nov 2011 "Popular Hot Rodding", there's an article about using Hooker Headers Alignment Weld Sleeves, such as these:
www.jegs.com/p/Hooker-Headers/Hooker-Headers-Alignment-Weld-Sleeves/763776/10002/-1
So they were able to the routing from that shown on top to that shown on bottom:
So that could be an option when headers fit almost, but one tube needs some rerouting.
Here's the complete article:
i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/sigmfsk/aa111023/img281a.jpg
i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/sigmfsk/aa111023/img282a.jpg
i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/sigmfsk/aa111023/img283a.jpg
your friend in remembering what KewanneTypeR reminded us:
> Any hot-rodder worth his beans knows that a serious engine
> hop-up using stock iron exhaust manifolds is a waste of money.
> Elwood knew this, as he was called by Jake, "Mr. Hot-Rodder!"
arthur
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a summary block of our current 74-77 c-body header knowledge.
Big Block:
Hedman 78070.
Shortie headers.
Lots of pics and links in this thread indicating they'll work.
Sanderson DD2 Chrysler 383-440 V8 Blockhugger Header Set
Sanderson advertises:
> The DD2 is a perfect fit for Chrysler "B" and "C" chassis.
58HF reports that
> the lower flange hit the side of the block, a little grinding and he made it work
Hooker 5113
Long tube headers.
Advertised by hooker to fit.
Expect to work, but need to remove drag link and torsion bar to install.
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/post/11919
Hedman 78030.
Long tube headers.
Several sites advertise them for a 74 dodge:
www.sportcompactonly.com/Hedman/Performance/part_c-1_b-48_p-99339.htm
www.jegs.com/i/Hedman/500/78030/10002/-1
But the hedman site doesn't:
www.hedman.com/site/?d=119&dt=108&Keyword=78030&YearID=&MakeID=&ModelID=
No data.
TTI headers:
They have some for pre-74 c-bodies that may work on a 74.
No data.
Schumacher has some Hi-Flow Tri-Y Under Chassis B/RB Headers:
> In '66-73 C-Body applications: The 440 may require shims on the
> passenger side motor mount. In some cases, the automatic kick down
> bellcrank may hit the flange and need to be narrowed.
www.engine-swaps.com/Pages/ProductsType/BRB_Headers.html
May work on a 74?
No data.
Small Block:
Hedman part # 78050.
Doesn't fit 77 royal:
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/post/2265
headers for 1998 - 2003 dodge durangos
Fit a 69:
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/post/2265
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What follows is the original post that started the thread:
On BBC, we chatted a bit about headers here:
www.bluesbrotherscentral.com/forum/topic/2053-c-body-headers/
We started talking about Hooker Super Comp 5113 headers, as they appeared the only headers that would work in a big block in a 74-77 c-body. I found this link:
www.moparchat.com/forums/showpost.php?p=163665&postcount=19
where a guy used them on his 77 c-body Fury:
> These fit into my C-body 77 Plymouth GranFury 400 c.i. automatic.
> Everything fit with the minor exception of the transmission
> selector torque shaft, between the transmission and the frame,
> had to be rotated up, 180 degrees, to clear the header collector.
> The rest was a trouble free fit.
KewanneTypeR wrote that those were the only headers of which he was aware would fit our monacos. He spoke with TTI about their c-body headers, and:
> ...TTI offers C-body headers, but they are listed for applications
> only to 1973. I talked to TTI in person at a car show since my first
> post and asked if their headers would fit on 74-77 cars. Nobody
> at TTI knew that information. That is because they never test
> fitted them on 74-77 cars. They used a pre-74 C-body to design
> the headers, so that is all they are approved for. TTI's 1973 and
> down C-body headers "MAY" work on 74-77 cars, but nobody will
> know until someone gives it a shot.
------------
And then I wrote about what I thought would be the best flowing stock manfolds for use on a 74-77 c-body.
------------
Country Bunker posted this link
www.cbodydrydock.com/forum_viewtopic.php?6.60334
about
> ...one set of headers a guy is useing on a 1969 dodge monaco
> 500. Their headers for 1998 - 2003 dodge durangos. Their not full
> lengh headers, just shortys.. and their not gonna bring out as
> much power as the hookers. But should work great for a mild
> engine. Hell they've gotta be 100% better then the hallow boat
> anchors for manifolds that came from the factory!
and provided these pics:
Then I posted:
----------------
Here's a pic
from this site:
www.stainlessheaders.com/customheaders
They send you a kit, and you make your own set of headers out of aluminum and PVC pipe, then drill holes through the pieces and make them permanent. Then you send it back to them, and they make the headers.
Here's a video about it:
I bet its expensive, but it would be a fun experience to design some headers.
I see in the back of HPBooks Big-Block Mopar Performance by Chuck Senatore has these formulas for header length & diameter:
length = 850 * (360 - exhaust valve opening point ) / RPM - 3
diameter = sqrt(cid per cylinder * 16.38 / (length + 3) * 25) * 2.1
example: 572 engine, 8 cylinder engine, exhaust valve opens 85 before BDC, desired rpm is 7000
length = 850 * (360 - 85) / 7000 - 3 = 30.4"
diameter = sqrt(572 / 8 * 16.38 / ((30.4 + 3) * 25)) * 2.1
= sqrt(71.5 * 16.38 / 835) * 2.1
= 2.49"
I've taken some liberties with the equation, because the book has many editorial errors and I tried to clean it up best I could.
Here's a site with a calculator:
www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
and for the same engine, it calculates headers 30.4" long (the same length), and a diameter of 2.37". It also gives collector length of 15.2" and diameter of 4.5"
If you have a dyno, you can do some runs and input the data into pipemax which will design a header:
www.maxracesoftware.com/
I see that Schumacher Creative Services offers headers for '65 and up c-body:
www.engine-swaps.com/frames/frame_Header.html
I wonder if they really mean '65 - '73.
--------------------
Bluzman write:
> I bought a set of the Hedman part # 78050s from Summit just to
> see if they would fit. My car is a 77 Royal with a small block....well
> the headers actually fit perfect..but you can only drive the car
> straight! The pitman arm hits the #1,3,5, header tube on the
> drivers side. Oh well...I was just curious...I had found a website
> that said they would fit a 77 Royal Monaco but rest assured they
> will fit...as long as you do not have to turn.....great for a Drag
> Car!:BB: I was wondering about the Durango ones..looks like
> they would fit fine.
Beefmalone:
> how tight is the fit? a little heat and a BFH can fit alot of
> problems.
Bluzman:
> You could cut and re-negotiate the 3 problematic tubes and make
> them work...............which I actually did..but then the starter
> would not clear them....wasted a whole weekend cutting,
> shortening, and lengthening the tubes. There was not even room
> for a mini starter. So the factory manifolds went back on. Sorry
> Beef...even the BFH will not work here.
-------------------------------------
So up to modern day, Lord Vadus has a set of Hooker headers.
bluesmobiles.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=owners&thread=56&post=2089
and they seem to be competition, not super comp, and are marked "50113" instead of "5113".
I'm eager to see how they fit, because (as I wrote in LV's thread):
If they fit, and if we can figure out what a 50113 was advertised for use by Hooker, then we might drastically expand our header selection range. Let's say, for example that a 50113 was sold for:
a 440 in one of:
1967-1976 "A"-bodies:
1962-1974 "B"-bodies
1970-1974 "E"-bodies
Then that might mean that a header designed for a 440 for one of those cars will fit a 74-77 c-body. So that might mean that I could use a header designed for one of those cars:
www.ttiexhaust.com/Header-TTI440-218/HeaderDetails.htm
on my car. At least it would give me a greater degree of confidence that if it needed to change, it wouldn't need to be modified by much. I excitedly await future updates.
--------------------
In the Nov 2011 "Popular Hot Rodding", there's an article about using Hooker Headers Alignment Weld Sleeves, such as these:
www.jegs.com/p/Hooker-Headers/Hooker-Headers-Alignment-Weld-Sleeves/763776/10002/-1
So they were able to the routing from that shown on top to that shown on bottom:
So that could be an option when headers fit almost, but one tube needs some rerouting.
Here's the complete article:
i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/sigmfsk/aa111023/img281a.jpg
i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/sigmfsk/aa111023/img282a.jpg
i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/sigmfsk/aa111023/img283a.jpg
your friend in remembering what KewanneTypeR reminded us:
> Any hot-rodder worth his beans knows that a serious engine
> hop-up using stock iron exhaust manifolds is a waste of money.
> Elwood knew this, as he was called by Jake, "Mr. Hot-Rodder!"
arthur
