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Post by spanks79 on Nov 28, 2013 23:51:29 GMT -5
What are you guys using or planing on using for ignition? I want to use stock ignition parts, no MSD or other setups. My plan is to clean up and rebuild my current 440 distributor, new coil and new ignition box. This is a good article I found. It specifically speaks of ignition boxes. www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_1211_3_2_1_ignition_box/The rev-a-nator sounds like a nice ignition box. www.thertgarage.com/products.htmlBut at $200 that is a tough justification when all other boxes cost $50. I could but a complete new mopar distributor with ignition box for that money. Orange box? Chrome box? New pick up for the distributor? What coil? Lots of good stuff in here www.mopar.com/assets/pdf/performance/catalog/Ignition_&_Electronics.pdf Reliability is my upmost concern, however if I ever take any long road trips I would plan on carrying spare of all these parts. My tendency is to look for genuine Mopar parts. Being in the automotive business I have a bias toward factory electronic parts over aftermarket like Standard Ignition or Duralsat or NAPA. However you can also find reports on the web about failed Mopar Orange boxes. Edit: found these guys. www.4secondsflat.com/Ignition.html they seem to have a decent following on other mopar forums. Some good reading here www.4secondsflat.com/Mission%2520Ignition.html if I read this correctly it looks like there are some gains to be had in blueprinting the distributor itself "phasing"
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Post by sigmfsk on Nov 29, 2013 5:15:24 GMT -5
I want to use stock ignition parts, no MSD or other setups. ... The rev-a-nator sounds like a nice ignition box. www.thertgarage.com/products.htmlBut at $200 that is a tough justification when all other boxes cost $50. I could but a complete new mopar distributor with ignition box for that money. The rev-n-nator seems just as non-stock as an MSD 6AL. They both never came on a mopar, and both are made by aftermarket companies. I'm thinking you're thinking "I want to use stock parts (sold by mopar), but I'd be open to using an aftermarket part (such as napa stock replacement or r/t garage rev-n-nator) so long as it directly connected to the stock wiring harness". I'm thinking of using ignition control: MSD 6AL coil: MSD blaster So I don't have much input there. Here's an article that seems to cover the situation well: www.nmcadigital.com/2012/12/14/going-through-phases-how-to-properly-set-rotor-phase/The important thing is that when the distributor is sent the signal for the spark plug to fire, that the rotor tip is correctly aligned with the distributor cap terminal: so you can cut a hole in the distributor cap, and check the alignment with a timing light: I thought the article did a good job of describing the situation: But if using the distributor to achieve both: - ignition timing - distribute the spark (which needs rotor phasing) Then one can't simply move around the distributor in order to achieve rotor phasing, because it would adjust the timing also. In this case, the rotor can be phased with an adjustable rotor: An adjustable rotor would not be needed if the distributor and rotor and cap were all manufactured perfectly with alignment tabs. I think these guys www.4secondsflat.com/Mission%2520Ignition.html are saying they can fix some of the problems: but it's still not a guarantee that rotor phasing will be correct, as they continue: I think since we don't hear much about rotor phasing that the stock setup is typically good enough for stock motors. Stock motors wouldn't have situations needing large timing changes (due to large cylinder pressures, due to supercharging or nitrous), and the stock coil probably wouldn't have enough spark to jump 1/2 way between terminals, so it would seem take a monstrous misalignment for the spark to jump to the wrong terminal. But since rotor phasing can be checked just for the cost of a distributor cap, it seems a worthwhile thing to check and correcting a phase problem might provide a few extra horses. That vacuum plate fix discussed by 4secondsflast sounds like a necessary first step in providing a solid baseline.
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Post by 58hemifury on Nov 29, 2013 9:49:55 GMT -5
I really don't like the newer Mopar Performance electronic ignitions for anyone wanting to go all Mopar, the original set ups and earlier Direct Connection parts were good, my Road Runner has the DC box and regulator on it since 1973, my '57 got the MP set up in the mid '90s and the boxes just don't last and the distributors seem to advance too far unless you eliminate the vacuum advance. My '58 has an MSD which works great but once the box went bad 100 miles from home so if you carry extra parts the MSD is a great set up. I like points, simple, reliable, and you can always get home even if you are sputtering and missing the whole way. The stock Mopar boxes and distributors of yesterday are also very reliable but I'd recommend carrying an extra box, ballast resistor, and reluctor (or complete distributor). The more stock you go the better chance you have at finding parts at a local parts store if you break down far from home, something always to consider when traveling. These are the set ups I have experience with so they're all I can give advice on. I would from friend's experiences, avoid pertronix even though they seem to be the "in" set up right now, they have left many people stranded with no warning signs.
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Post by sigmfsk on Nov 29, 2013 10:54:21 GMT -5
I like points, simple, reliable, and you can always get home even if you are sputtering and missing the whole way. I like 58HF's liking points. You could switch to a 1972 mopar point distributor, and then you'd save the cost of an ignition box and spares AND you'd be impervious to EMP (from both overhead nuclear bomb explosions, and Illinois Nazis trying to stop your car with an EMP stick).
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Post by spanks79 on Nov 29, 2013 12:18:57 GMT -5
"I want to use stock parts (sold by mopar), but I'd be open to using an aftermarket part (such as napa stock replacement or r/t garage rev-n-nator) so long as it directly connected to the stock wiring harness". This is correct. I can assure you points are out, I'm not going there however you all are correct they can be rock solid reliable, I've tuned many points cars for customers and they run great. Oh and 58HF, no way is Petronix going any where near this car. When I read about concepts such as rotor phasing I think it would be easy to send off the distributor to some one and have this done for my but them I wonder what couldn't I do it my self. The article you pointed out covers it nicely. First I found this on line www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Special-Distributor-Reluctor-Stops-Misfiring-340-360-383-426-Hemi-440-/321254797258?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4acc472fcaWhich accomplishes the same thing but looks way more difficult to tune than this So if I can phase my own distributor with minimal effort that still begs the question "what about the ignition box and coil" is there any real advantage to hi po aftermarket parts or is the cheap parts store standard ignition stuff fine to use. FBO makes makes some convincing arguments about their stuff. From the research I have done, there seems to be no advantage to the Mopar Performance stuff at all. The orange box is known to pull timing out at higher rpm, the chrome box is not much better, it's just rater at a higher rpm. If I want non stock, this looks like a nice option, but again I would be taking a big step away from being able to easily service the unit on the road.
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Post by sigmfsk on Nov 29, 2013 12:40:15 GMT -5
I found this page talking about it: www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/archive/index.php/t-217220.htmland then I found this page of instructions: board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/7532635-reluctorsheet.pdfhere's the juicy part: FBO makes makes some convincing arguments about their stuff. From the research I have done, there seems to be no advantage to the Mopar Performance stuff at all. The orange box is known to pull timing out at higher rpm, the chrome box is not much better, it's just rater at a higher rpm. So FBO is the house brand of "4secondsflat.com" (like Kirkland is the house brand of Costco): > HRR688 Ignition Box Only > $169.00 Is there any reason to pick that over stock? Or over the rev-n-nator (other than cost)? Is there any reason to not use stock unit?
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Post by spanks79 on Nov 29, 2013 13:23:26 GMT -5
Good reads on the reluctor adjustment, however it seems the MSD cap does the exact same thing but with the ability to fine tune, where the adjustable reluctor only has static positions, much like my double roller timing chain set. (I degreed my cam in and was 1.5deg off but typical adjustable timing chain setups only allow 4-5deg change in either direction. I plan to cover this more in my build thread) I guess the one advantage would be once you get the reluctor set it is set for good and you can use stock rotors for ever. Changing the MSD rotor would require a re tune. Bottom line, this looks like a worthwhile adjustment or at leas worth checking on for any application. ]So FBO is the house brand of "4secondsflat.com" (like Kirkland is the house brand of Costco): > HRR688 Ignition Box Only > $169.00 Is there any reason to pick that over stock? Or over the rev-n-nator (other than cost)? Is there any reason to not use stock unit? Very good question. At some point the price becomes near equal between the FBO and rev-n-ator. It seems like for a street set up where I only plan on cruising around, burnouts and only occasional full throttle runs getting on the highway of from a stoplight is there any benefit in the aftermarket stuff? I could call Dodge and buy a new pickup for the distributor, use an FBO coil ( www.4secondsflat.com/a688dropcyltest.html )and a Standard Ignition (parts store) ignition box, and the adjustable MSD cap (duh, what am I thinking, the MSD cap is only for MSD distributors. So it looks like if I want a stock distributor I need the adjustable reluctor.....don't know what I'm thinking) . Then easily step up to the Rev-n-ator at a later date. The idea of a rev limiter is somewhat appealing depending on the aggressiveness and frequency of previously mentioned burnouts.
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Post by sigmfsk on Nov 29, 2013 13:52:46 GMT -5
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Post by spanks79 on Nov 29, 2013 14:30:45 GMT -5
Does MSD make an adjustable rotor for the stock mopar 440 distributor? No they don't. Thus the edit to my last post, likely while you were posting this. If I want the stock distributor I need the adjustable reluctor.
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Post by spanks79 on Nov 30, 2013 22:34:09 GMT -5
My research has continued on ignition options. I stumbled across an HEI conversion. Basically you use the mopar distributor and bickup then use a GM HEI ignition module and coil thus eliminating the mopar ignition box and ballast resistor. This provides a hotter spark, still uses parts easily avaliable in parts stores. Some mopar purists say no GM parts on a Dodge. Personally I am a GM guy who wanted a Bluesmobile, so I don't really care about that. www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=92166If you read the responses in this thread, lots of discussion of how it is no better than the stock mopar system. www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=202326I might be over thinking this.........
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Post by sigmfsk on Dec 1, 2013 1:51:42 GMT -5
My research has continued on ignition options. I stumbled across an HEI conversion. Basically you use the mopar distributor and bickup then use a GM HEI ignition module and coil thus eliminating the mopar ignition box and ballast resistor. This provides a hotter spark, still uses parts easily avaliable in parts stores. That's an interesting upgrade. If the goal is to remove the mopar ignition box and ballast resistor, how about an MSD ready-to-run distributor: www.msdignition.com/Products/Distributors/Chrysler/Ready-to-Run/E-Curve/8387_-_Chrysler_440-426_Ready-to-Run_Distributor.aspxIt has the ignition control electronics hidden inside, and has just 3-wire hookup: Read more: www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_1201_mopar_quick_tech_electronic_ignition_made_simple/#ixzz2mCdymvAUIf your distributor ignition module failed while driving around, the local parts store probably won't have a spare ignition module for an MSD ready-to-run distributor. But if your requirement is: - a setup where if things break in the boonies, you can buy parts from the local auto store and get moving again. then if the distributor breaks, you can always get moving by buying a stock mopar ignition box, ballast resistor, and distributor.
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Post by 58hemifury on Dec 1, 2013 6:45:18 GMT -5
If your distributor ignition module failed while driving around, the local parts store probably won't have a spare ignition module for an MSD ready-to-run distributor. But if your requirement is: - a setup where if things break in the boonies, you can buy parts from the local auto store and get moving again. then if the distributor breaks, you can always get moving by buying a stock mopar ignition box, ballast resistor, and distributor. Or you could buy a cheap used or rebuilt 440 distributor, some wire, and a ballast to carry as a back up ignition, it'll get you home, I did that once on a friends 360 when we couldn't figure out an ignition issue 2 hours from his house. I ran a points distributor wired to the battery with a toggle switch to turn it on and shut the car off and it got him home.
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Post by countrybunker on Dec 1, 2013 10:10:17 GMT -5
GM crap on Mopar.... Shame on you spanks! Haha
Ive used the mopar orange box for years with the stock distributor, and have never had any problems. I carry the original ecu in the trunk just incase. I also added a mopar performance coil along with it. I noticed quite a difference with them. No more hesitation, easier start ups, and what not.
Im undecided on what ignition to run witb the big block going in. Either mopar again, or possibly MSD.
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Post by 58hemifury on Dec 1, 2013 11:16:16 GMT -5
GM crap on Mopar.... Shame on you spanks! Haha Ive used the mopar orange box for years with the stock distributor, and have never had any problems. I carry the original ecu in the trunk just incase. I also added a mopar performance coil along with it. I noticed quite a difference with them. No more hesitation, easier start ups, and what not. Im undecided on what ignition to run witb the big block going in. Either mopar again, or possibly MSD. Just remember, Mopar, unlike "the good old days" now uses the cheapest vendor to make their performance parts so it's hit or miss on quality. Back in the Direct Connection days they bought their parts from specific vendors like cams were always Racer Brown, ect. Now it could be Crane, Comp cams, Joe's Fish and Chips and Cam Shafts, as I said, hit or miss on quality. And I do have experiences with bad cams, orange boxes, fuel pump push rods, ect. from Mopar. I work at a Chrysler dealer and I am acquaintances with Jim Dowell from Racer Brown cams who also filled me in on the cheapest vendor thing. I myself would run a hidden MSD box with a stock Mopar points distributor, my friend did that and works great and keeps underhood appearances stock, or go with the MSD Distributor, box, coil, ect. which I have on my Hemi, that also works great (just carry an extra box, with the points distributor in and emergency you can always bypass the box and run home on points).
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Post by sigmfsk on Dec 1, 2013 12:25:32 GMT -5
...you can always bypass the box and run home on points). I like that idea of carrying a spare distributor - a points distributor. Gives a good reliable limp-home method.
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