There's a new (Marin County) Sheriff in town
Apr 13, 2012 7:01:05 GMT -5
Post by sigmfsk on Apr 13, 2012 7:01:05 GMT -5
This post:
thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2526-Mustang-ABS-and-Racelogic-TC
seems to provide a valid assessment that
>For the Race Logic TC system to work:
>. The ABS signals must be a standard passive type, not active.
>. The injector signals must be standard saturated type and are not peak and hold.
>. The injectors are not low impedence (4ohm or less).
It looks like (at least usually) low-impedence and "peak and hold" are the same thing, and high-impedence and "saturated" are the same thing.
hondaswap.com/general-tech-articles/peak-hold-vs-saturated-injectors-30347/
It looks like factory injectors are usually high-impendence.
And, at least in the past, the highest flow injectors were low-impedence.
Racelogic requires high-impedence.
The motor guy and I selected these injectors for my motor:
FAST XFI: 308300, 83 lb/hr, low-impedence
www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-308300/
So they won't work with racelogic. And the injectors that work with racelogic (high-impedence) aren't typically high-flow.
Earlier, I posted about that UK outfit that made high-flow injectors.
Mark (of Woodhouse Viper) referred me to this site in the USA that makes them:
www.fiveomotorsport.com/
And now I see on the FAST site that they are making high-flow high-impedence injectors (to mate-up with the latest LS series motors)
Here's the page on their original injectors:
www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-%27Fuel%20Injectors%27-0.aspx
and here's their page on GM Gen 4 injectors:
www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-%27Fuel%20Injectors%27-1.aspx
I can get 85 lb/hr high-impedence saturated type injectors from them.
30857 LS2 style
www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-30857-1/
30859 LS3/7 style
www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-30859-1/
All three styles have the same diameter, so all should fit my intake.
30857 is in stock at Summit.
30859 is not in stock.
It looks like the only difference is in injector height, which isn't an issue for me.
This page
www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-%27Fuel%20Injectors%27-1.aspx
says that the LS2 injector is shorter:
> ...due to the fact that LS2 and LS7 engines feature shorter fuel injectors than other LS
> engines
while this page
www.fuelairspark.com/WhatsNew/Files/fastgmgenivfuelinjectoradapterharnesstechsheet.pdf
shows the Ls2 injector being taller.
Either way, I think I can just do nothing, wait for Steve L to finish the intake, then select the FAST injectors before dynoing.
----------------------------------------------------
Here's some stuff I found on underbody treatment, venting to the wheel wells, and rear suspension stuff:
> You want to work more on the front half of the car. By the time
> the air under the car gets near the back it is pretty messed up
> anyway.
> ...
> What you want to do is not only smooth the bottom front half of
> the car but a major goal is to restrict the amount of air entering
> the front of the car and going out under the bottom.
This is good news that most gains are in the front, because I can have a full underbody tray in the front without it not matching the movie. In the rear, one can see the 9 1/4 axle, and the gas tank, but the rest of the rear undercar area is fuzzy.
My "perfectly match the movie" plan is already planned for failure (with my enlarged transmission tunnel) so maybe I don't need to plan on using rear leaf springs. Maybe I should use a 3-link, like the '68 Camaro "Bad Penny"
> DAVID POZZI : FASTEST LAP OVERALL ON THE RACE TRACK
> MARY POZZI 2ND PLACE AUTOCROSS
> STEVE RUPP OWNER OF THE 68 CAMARO WE DROVE NAMED "BAD
> PENNY"
>
> Penny has a 400 ci "LS2" engine, corvette front suspension,
> Lateral Dynamics 3 link rear suspension and Willwood 6 pisoton
> manual brakes.
www.pozziracing.com/
> Rear Suspension: Lateral Dynamics three-link with Watts-link
> centering device
www.lateral-g.net/rupp/
Here's the time chart:
www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17409
> The Lateral Dynamics 3 link rear never let me down, I've never
> driven a Camaro that felt as stable in the back as this one. When
> a rear suspension works this well the driver doesn't think "WOW
> this is working", it just removes the rear suspension as a
> problem the driver feels or is concerned about, he can shift focus
> to other tasks like getting the car around the track. Just hit the
> gas and GO, no funny business.
www.pozziracing.com/optima_08_story.htm
It looks like the One Lap Camaro used the same setup:
> The rear suspension system chosen for the OneLapCamaro was
> developed by Lateral Dynamics of Carlsbad, California, some
> seriously passionate road racers and musclecar enthusiasts. The
> Lateral Dynamics 3-Link System is a true road race inspired,
> performance rear suspension system designed for early muscle
> cars. Their exhaustive research and development has resulted in
> a setup that offers unparalleled high speed stability and
> performance potential - a system that is equally at home on the
> street, road course, auto cross and dragstrip.
www.onelapcamaro.com/build/rearsuspension.html
Lots of pics on that page.
Could be problematic to get the the axle silhouette to match the movie.
Ok, back to belly pans:
> ...just putting a flat panel underneath your car will still
> increase downforce and reduce drag at the same time(if angled
> correctly)!
www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1664
> On my car, a 92 Civic CX hatch with a DX engine, I have a
> complete smooth underbody panel and exhaust most of my
> radiator air out through my front wheel wells. The remainder
> exhausts out through the central tunnel that the exhaust pipe
> runs through (where it cools the cat and exhaust pipe) and
> exhausts into the right rear wheel well.
> ...
> Installing the underbody panel reduced the road noise inside the
> car, apparently a lot of "road" noise is actually wind noise being
> generated underneath the car. My underbody panel is mostly
> coroplast with aluminum roof flashing covering the areas near the
> exhaust pipe.
www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=4650
So it's quieter, too.
That same thread has this interesting piece:
> Chrysler did some wind tunnel tests with a 300 a couple of years
> ago with belly pans. What they did was cover under the engine
> but place ductwork to the rear to allow engine heat to exit. What
> they want to do is force the air to exit the underside of the car in
> such a way as to affect the turbulence in a way that they
> wanted. Photos attached.
Above, no pan.
Above, with pan.
I think dumping the radiator exhaust to the wheel wells is the way to go for me, but the above is interesting (showing dumping it through the belly pan to the underside).
The Rahal Letterman Racing BMW M3 GT2:
> Check out how the wheel wells have been sealed up very tight...
> This is to control the air inside the wheel wells and the engine
> bay.
speedhunters.com/archive/2009/09/09/car-feature-gt-gt-ultimate-bimmer-the-m3-gt2.aspx
Here's an RX7 before:
and after:
from
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=333609&highlight=damian+splitter&page=2
Some good stuff later in that same thread:
> The underbody scheme is as follows:
> - The front needs to be completely flat, smoothing out the air
> coming under the car
> - Loading tunnels/runners should begin before the center of
> gravity (which is prob somewhere around where the seats are).
> - The tunnels/runners should encompass at least 25% of the
> length of the car, ending in a diffuser
> - The ramp of the diffuser should angled at a minimum of 17
> degrees and be of sufficient length to properly evacuate the rear
> of the car
>
> Of course, doing the above requires completely sealing the
> underbody of the car...
> Very few cars have such a setup, such as the Ferrari F40/50, and
> the Chystler ME 4-12.
>
> The other alternative is to do what you can, within reason. That
> becomes a very flat front undertray extending as far back as
> possible, and a rear diffuser of sufficient length w/ a properly
> angled ramp. Allow me to illustrate...
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=333609&highlight=damian+splitter&page=4
And same-thread discussion of venting radiator exhaust:
> there are a couple solutions as to where you could help direct
> the air, the simplest would be to direct it through the front wheel
> area since that is a aerodynamic mess to begin with
same-thread pic of Ferrari 360:
Making a carbon fiber backing plate for brake cooling:
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=355977&highlight=brake+backing+plates
probably not needed for a CEVS EVOC course, but you never know!
> RoadAmerica is arguable the hardest track on brakes in the
> nation. It has many very long straights that lead in to tight turns
> and some very hard downhill braking zones. On some cars Ra
> has been known to eat new rotors in one event and explode
> rotors, in the last event a vette came into a deep braking zone
> and his front rotor exploded, literally exploded.
> ...
> the only part of the rotor left was the peice covered by the
> caliper/pads, look at this pic:
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=333609&highlight=damian+splitter&page=6
> This is OT at this point, but there's considerable discussion as to
> whether the rotor exploded or if there was some other failure.
but its still a scary pic.
> Just a note on materials: I found a great price source on Carbon
> Fiber, Kelvar etc. plus epoxy and materials at this site.. also low
> cost shipping and same day service.
> sollerpaddles.com/composites/
That guy did a lot of work ducting the intake to the radiator:
www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3837493#post3837493
> In the following pics i have highlighted some frontal radiator
> exhaust areas in red.
> img826.imageshack.us/g/dscf2527.jpg/
> My question is why have they created outlets like this? What
> would their use be? What pressures etc would you expect to see?
responses:
> there is a beneficial pressure gradient (low pressure behind the
> bow-wave at the front of the car).
> You're exactly right, rb - there is a local low behind the initial high
> of the bow wave that will help evacuate the cooling air. Also,
> there is a local low near the tops of the fenders which is why you
> see many vents there as well.
www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=279484
> Surprising, tires cause a large amount of aerodynamic drag. This
> drag can be reduced by moving to a slimmer tire and reducing
> area in the wheel well where turbulent flow can exist.
www.crxmpg.com/category/aerodynamic/
> Audi engineers claim that 40 - 50% of the total drag on a vehicle
> is in the underbody and the wheels and wheel wells.
forums.maxima.org/6th-generation-maxima-2004-2008/610233-underbody-panel.html
> Some manufacturers now have much more efficient ducting of the
> air to the radiator and ducting away through either the wheel
> wells or better still strategically placed vents out of the bonnet.
www.performance-car-guide.co.uk/car-aerodynamics.html
Some BMW venting to wheel well:
www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204497&page=4
and NISMO GT-R RC
www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?/topic/46689-nismo-gt-r-rc-racing-competition/page__st__40
thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2526-Mustang-ABS-and-Racelogic-TC
seems to provide a valid assessment that
>For the Race Logic TC system to work:
>. The ABS signals must be a standard passive type, not active.
>. The injector signals must be standard saturated type and are not peak and hold.
>. The injectors are not low impedence (4ohm or less).
It looks like (at least usually) low-impedence and "peak and hold" are the same thing, and high-impedence and "saturated" are the same thing.
hondaswap.com/general-tech-articles/peak-hold-vs-saturated-injectors-30347/
It looks like factory injectors are usually high-impendence.
And, at least in the past, the highest flow injectors were low-impedence.
Racelogic requires high-impedence.
The motor guy and I selected these injectors for my motor:
FAST XFI: 308300, 83 lb/hr, low-impedence
www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-308300/
So they won't work with racelogic. And the injectors that work with racelogic (high-impedence) aren't typically high-flow.
Earlier, I posted about that UK outfit that made high-flow injectors.
Mark (of Woodhouse Viper) referred me to this site in the USA that makes them:
www.fiveomotorsport.com/
And now I see on the FAST site that they are making high-flow high-impedence injectors (to mate-up with the latest LS series motors)
Here's the page on their original injectors:
www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-%27Fuel%20Injectors%27-0.aspx
and here's their page on GM Gen 4 injectors:
www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-%27Fuel%20Injectors%27-1.aspx
I can get 85 lb/hr high-impedence saturated type injectors from them.
30857 LS2 style
www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-30857-1/
30859 LS3/7 style
www.summitracing.com/parts/FST-30859-1/
All three styles have the same diameter, so all should fit my intake.
30857 is in stock at Summit.
30859 is not in stock.
It looks like the only difference is in injector height, which isn't an issue for me.
This page
www.fuelairspark.com/Products/FS-%27Fuel%20Injectors%27-1.aspx
says that the LS2 injector is shorter:
> ...due to the fact that LS2 and LS7 engines feature shorter fuel injectors than other LS
> engines
while this page
www.fuelairspark.com/WhatsNew/Files/fastgmgenivfuelinjectoradapterharnesstechsheet.pdf
shows the Ls2 injector being taller.
Either way, I think I can just do nothing, wait for Steve L to finish the intake, then select the FAST injectors before dynoing.
----------------------------------------------------
Here's some stuff I found on underbody treatment, venting to the wheel wells, and rear suspension stuff:
> You want to work more on the front half of the car. By the time
> the air under the car gets near the back it is pretty messed up
> anyway.
> ...
> What you want to do is not only smooth the bottom front half of
> the car but a major goal is to restrict the amount of air entering
> the front of the car and going out under the bottom.
This is good news that most gains are in the front, because I can have a full underbody tray in the front without it not matching the movie. In the rear, one can see the 9 1/4 axle, and the gas tank, but the rest of the rear undercar area is fuzzy.
My "perfectly match the movie" plan is already planned for failure (with my enlarged transmission tunnel) so maybe I don't need to plan on using rear leaf springs. Maybe I should use a 3-link, like the '68 Camaro "Bad Penny"
> DAVID POZZI : FASTEST LAP OVERALL ON THE RACE TRACK
> MARY POZZI 2ND PLACE AUTOCROSS
> STEVE RUPP OWNER OF THE 68 CAMARO WE DROVE NAMED "BAD
> PENNY"
>
> Penny has a 400 ci "LS2" engine, corvette front suspension,
> Lateral Dynamics 3 link rear suspension and Willwood 6 pisoton
> manual brakes.
www.pozziracing.com/
> Rear Suspension: Lateral Dynamics three-link with Watts-link
> centering device
www.lateral-g.net/rupp/
Here's the time chart:
www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17409
> The Lateral Dynamics 3 link rear never let me down, I've never
> driven a Camaro that felt as stable in the back as this one. When
> a rear suspension works this well the driver doesn't think "WOW
> this is working", it just removes the rear suspension as a
> problem the driver feels or is concerned about, he can shift focus
> to other tasks like getting the car around the track. Just hit the
> gas and GO, no funny business.
www.pozziracing.com/optima_08_story.htm
It looks like the One Lap Camaro used the same setup:
> The rear suspension system chosen for the OneLapCamaro was
> developed by Lateral Dynamics of Carlsbad, California, some
> seriously passionate road racers and musclecar enthusiasts. The
> Lateral Dynamics 3-Link System is a true road race inspired,
> performance rear suspension system designed for early muscle
> cars. Their exhaustive research and development has resulted in
> a setup that offers unparalleled high speed stability and
> performance potential - a system that is equally at home on the
> street, road course, auto cross and dragstrip.
www.onelapcamaro.com/build/rearsuspension.html
Lots of pics on that page.
Could be problematic to get the the axle silhouette to match the movie.
Ok, back to belly pans:
> ...just putting a flat panel underneath your car will still
> increase downforce and reduce drag at the same time(if angled
> correctly)!
www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=1664
> On my car, a 92 Civic CX hatch with a DX engine, I have a
> complete smooth underbody panel and exhaust most of my
> radiator air out through my front wheel wells. The remainder
> exhausts out through the central tunnel that the exhaust pipe
> runs through (where it cools the cat and exhaust pipe) and
> exhausts into the right rear wheel well.
> ...
> Installing the underbody panel reduced the road noise inside the
> car, apparently a lot of "road" noise is actually wind noise being
> generated underneath the car. My underbody panel is mostly
> coroplast with aluminum roof flashing covering the areas near the
> exhaust pipe.
www.gassavers.org/showthread.php?t=4650
So it's quieter, too.
That same thread has this interesting piece:
> Chrysler did some wind tunnel tests with a 300 a couple of years
> ago with belly pans. What they did was cover under the engine
> but place ductwork to the rear to allow engine heat to exit. What
> they want to do is force the air to exit the underside of the car in
> such a way as to affect the turbulence in a way that they
> wanted. Photos attached.
Above, no pan.
Above, with pan.
I think dumping the radiator exhaust to the wheel wells is the way to go for me, but the above is interesting (showing dumping it through the belly pan to the underside).
The Rahal Letterman Racing BMW M3 GT2:
> Check out how the wheel wells have been sealed up very tight...
> This is to control the air inside the wheel wells and the engine
> bay.
speedhunters.com/archive/2009/09/09/car-feature-gt-gt-ultimate-bimmer-the-m3-gt2.aspx
Here's an RX7 before:
and after:
from
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=333609&highlight=damian+splitter&page=2
Some good stuff later in that same thread:
> The underbody scheme is as follows:
> - The front needs to be completely flat, smoothing out the air
> coming under the car
> - Loading tunnels/runners should begin before the center of
> gravity (which is prob somewhere around where the seats are).
> - The tunnels/runners should encompass at least 25% of the
> length of the car, ending in a diffuser
> - The ramp of the diffuser should angled at a minimum of 17
> degrees and be of sufficient length to properly evacuate the rear
> of the car
>
> Of course, doing the above requires completely sealing the
> underbody of the car...
> Very few cars have such a setup, such as the Ferrari F40/50, and
> the Chystler ME 4-12.
>
> The other alternative is to do what you can, within reason. That
> becomes a very flat front undertray extending as far back as
> possible, and a rear diffuser of sufficient length w/ a properly
> angled ramp. Allow me to illustrate...
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=333609&highlight=damian+splitter&page=4
And same-thread discussion of venting radiator exhaust:
> there are a couple solutions as to where you could help direct
> the air, the simplest would be to direct it through the front wheel
> area since that is a aerodynamic mess to begin with
same-thread pic of Ferrari 360:
Making a carbon fiber backing plate for brake cooling:
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=355977&highlight=brake+backing+plates
probably not needed for a CEVS EVOC course, but you never know!
> RoadAmerica is arguable the hardest track on brakes in the
> nation. It has many very long straights that lead in to tight turns
> and some very hard downhill braking zones. On some cars Ra
> has been known to eat new rotors in one event and explode
> rotors, in the last event a vette came into a deep braking zone
> and his front rotor exploded, literally exploded.
> ...
> the only part of the rotor left was the peice covered by the
> caliper/pads, look at this pic:
www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=333609&highlight=damian+splitter&page=6
> This is OT at this point, but there's considerable discussion as to
> whether the rotor exploded or if there was some other failure.
but its still a scary pic.
> Just a note on materials: I found a great price source on Carbon
> Fiber, Kelvar etc. plus epoxy and materials at this site.. also low
> cost shipping and same day service.
> sollerpaddles.com/composites/
That guy did a lot of work ducting the intake to the radiator:
www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3837493#post3837493
> In the following pics i have highlighted some frontal radiator
> exhaust areas in red.
> img826.imageshack.us/g/dscf2527.jpg/
> My question is why have they created outlets like this? What
> would their use be? What pressures etc would you expect to see?
responses:
> there is a beneficial pressure gradient (low pressure behind the
> bow-wave at the front of the car).
> You're exactly right, rb - there is a local low behind the initial high
> of the bow wave that will help evacuate the cooling air. Also,
> there is a local low near the tops of the fenders which is why you
> see many vents there as well.
www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=279484
> Surprising, tires cause a large amount of aerodynamic drag. This
> drag can be reduced by moving to a slimmer tire and reducing
> area in the wheel well where turbulent flow can exist.
www.crxmpg.com/category/aerodynamic/
> Audi engineers claim that 40 - 50% of the total drag on a vehicle
> is in the underbody and the wheels and wheel wells.
forums.maxima.org/6th-generation-maxima-2004-2008/610233-underbody-panel.html
> Some manufacturers now have much more efficient ducting of the
> air to the radiator and ducting away through either the wheel
> wells or better still strategically placed vents out of the bonnet.
www.performance-car-guide.co.uk/car-aerodynamics.html
Some BMW venting to wheel well:
www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204497&page=4
and NISMO GT-R RC
www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?/topic/46689-nismo-gt-r-rc-racing-competition/page__st__40